Trouble with OTA lately

[11555h]

Next test... disconnect the 4 way splitter (tag the cables), and run the input to a single Dish receiver (use an RF barrel). Let that run a little and see if you still have the problem. You can look at the signal meter, but don't put a lot of stock in that.

That splitter is cutting the signal TO 25% for each output. *IF* bypassing the splitter solves your problem, you need another amplifier just before the splitter. Splitters used to have how many db drop labeled for each output. A four port splitter will probably be -6 to -7.5db. Take that number, multiply by 4, and add an amp equal to that (6 x 4 = 24, so get a 25db amplifier).

I'll give that a try tomorrow. I had read that each extra line coming off the splitter reduces the quality. Bobby had a good suggestion as well. Thanks to you both.

 

[sam_gordon]

I'll give that a try tomorrow. I had read that each extra line coming off the splitter reduces the quality. Bobby had a good suggestion as well. Thanks to you both.

Well, every split cuts the signal strength in half. A four way split cuts it in half twice, so you're down to 25%.

Because of it being a digital signal, the quality is perfect. Until it's not. Thats commonly called "the digital cliff". As you approach the cliff, you get macro blocking and breakup. But until that point, everything looks perfect.

 

[tjboston5676]

Next test... disconnect the 4 way splitter (tag the cables), and run the input to a single Dish receiver (use an RF barrel). Let that run a little and see if you still have the problem. You can look at the signal meter, but don't put a lot of stock in that.

That splitter is cutting the signal TO 25% for each output. *IF* bypassing the splitter solves your problem, you need another amplifier just before the splitter. Splitters used to have how many db drop labeled for each output. A four port splitter will probably be -6 to -7.5db. Take that number, multiply by 4, and add an amp equal to that (6 x 4 = 24, so get a 25db amplifier).

A splitter doesn't divide the signal strength across the ports. Generally every split is a 3.5db loss (which is would probably be about a 8-10% loss . So a two way will be -3.5 on each port, a three way will be -3.5 on one port and -7db on two ports (think of it as as a two way with a second two way on one of the ports) and a 4 way splitter will be -7db on every port (think of two two ways with another two way on each port.
You also dont multiply by number of outputs, it's just a set amount per split.
It's very rare for a splitter to cause issues. They almost never fail. It's possible though so should still check it. But the existing amplifier is more likely to be a problem than anything else.

 

[dishdude]

A splitter doesn't divide the signal strength across the ports. Generally every split is a 3.5db loss (which is would probably be about a 8-10% loss . So a two way will be -3.5 on each port, a three way will be -3.5 on one port and -7db on two ports (think of it as as a two way with a second two way on one of the ports) and a 4 way splitter will be -7db on every port (think of two two ways with another two way on each port.
You also dont multiply by number of outputs, it's just a set amount per split.
It's very rare for a splitter to cause issues. They almost never fail. It's possible though so should still check it. But the existing amplifier is more likely to be a problem than anything else.

I agree, I wouldn't focus too much on the splitter. The preamp along with exterior connections and balun should be checked for corrosion as well.

 

[11555h]

Last night I checked out the 4 way splitter. I have a Channel Master Titan 2 amplifier feeding into it and I have a run going to the Hopper, a run going to the bedroom (not on Dish) and a run going to the Joey, which really wasn't needed since I can get locals from the Hopper, so I unhooked it. This morning I was able to get every channel I wanted without moving the antenna. It could be because the weather is clear, no wind and no rain. I will be going today to find a RF barrel to eliminate the splitter completely to check the affects of that. BTW, the antenna was installed in 2001 and the amplifier and power supply was installed in 2007 so it is probably due for an inspection. I will post any future results. Thanks again for all of the help

 

[sam_gordon]

A splitter doesn't divide the signal strength across the ports. Generally every split is a 3.5db loss (which is would probably be about a 8-10% loss . So a two way will be -3.5 on each port, a three way will be -3.5 on one port and -7db on two ports (think of it as as a two way with a second two way on one of the ports) and a 4 way splitter will be -7db on every port (think of two two ways with another two way on each port.
You also dont multiply by number of outputs, it's just a set amount per split.
It's very rare for a splitter to cause issues. They almost never fail. It's possible though so should still check it. But the existing amplifier is more likely to be a problem than anything else.

First, you are TOTALLY wrong regarding how much a 3.5db loss is. db is logarithmic. If you cut something by 3 db, you've cut it in half. If you've added 3db, you've doubled it. This is not "probably", it's fact. The Decibel Measurement: A Ratio of Relative Strength - LiveAction

Second, yes, if you want to "make up" the db loss, you need to figure out the loss, then provide an amplifier to make up the loss. You are correct, my math was wrong. A four port splitter puts out ~25% of the power out of each output. Assuming your power starts at 100, that means each output power is at 25. So you need to make up (at least some of) that loss. If you simply double the input power (so +3 db), you now have "200" as your input level, but since each output is 25% of the input, your output level is 50. If you double the input power again (so now at +6 db), the input is now at 400, output is 25% of that, so 100.

Last, I'm really not suggesting the splitter has failed. But, it's no secret Dish's tuners aren't the best. If it is failing because of a lack of signal, the power loss from a splitter may be causing it. Bypassing the splitter and seeing if the situation improves is easy (a LOT easier than moving an antenna). Corrosion on connectors is another good check.

ETA: to change math. Grr. A 6db gain would quadruple (double + double) the signal strength.

 

[llokey]

Generally every split is a 3.5db loss (which is would probably be about a 8-10% loss .

Better check you math on -3.5db. Just to keep it simple, -3db cuts the signal by 1/2 if talking about power or 1/sqrt(2) if talking about voltage. I believe splitters are rated for power so the signal is cut by more than 1/2 by a splitter. As for a four way splitter the ports are sometimes labeled, sometimes not. If not labeled you can pretty well bet the signal loss is 7db which is less than 1/4 of the original signal.

 

[llokey]

Second, yes, if you want to "make up" the db loss, you need to figure out the loss, then provide an amplifier to make up the loss. You are correct, my math was wrong. A four port splitter puts out ~25% of the power out of each output. Assuming your power starts at 100, that means each output power is at 25. So you need to make up (at least some of) that loss. If you simply double the input power (so +7 db), you now have "200" as your input level, but since each output is 25% of the input, your output level is 50. If you double the input power again (so now at +14 db), the input is now at 400, output is 25% of that, so 100.

An amplifier's gain is only part of the story. An amplifier adds noise as well as gain. An inexpensive amplifier may add so much noise that the gain is negated. If an amplifier is needed, if may be best to get a low noise amplifier (which does cost more). Then again an inexpensive amplifier my work, depending on the circumstances.

 

[sam_gordon]

An amplifier's gain is only part of the story. An amplifier adds noise as well as gain. An inexpensive amplifier may add so much noise that the gain is negated. If an amplifier is needed, if may be best to get a low noise amplifier (which does cost more). Then again an inexpensive amplifier my work, depending on the circumstances.

I thought about mentioning that, but thought it might confuse issues. You are correct of course. I'm ASSUMING the test of bypassing the splitter is successful, which means either the splitter is going bad (not likely) or it's cutting the signal too much for the receiver.

 

[11555h]

I found a barrel to tie the antenna wire (amped) to the coax going to the Hopper and installed it. I'm afraid my previous post was a little hasty. The wind has come up a little now and I am getting some distortion on the far channels that used to come in very well. Could indicate the trees blowing in the wind. These channels are approximately 75 miles away. According to the Dish strength meter, on the 3 major network channels I am getting the following percentages as measured over about 20 seconds each. Fox 86 to 91%, NBC 82 to 92% and ABC 71 to 85%. I suppose the fluctuation could be attributed to trees blowing in the wind.
I sure am enjoying the discussion on here and willing to try any possible solutions, short of cutting the neighbors trees down.

 

[tjboston5676]

First, you are TOTALLY wrong regarding how much a 3.5db loss is. db is logarithmic. If you cut something by 3 db, you've cut it in half. If you've added 3db, you've doubled it. This is not "probably", it's fact. The Decibel Measurement: A Ratio of Relative Strength - LiveAction

Second, yes, if you want to "make up" the db loss, you need to figure out the loss, then provide an amplifier to make up the loss. You are correct, my math was wrong. A four port splitter puts out ~25% of the power out of each output. Assuming your power starts at 100, that means each output power is at 25. So you need to make up (at least some of) that loss. If you simply double the input power (so +3 db), you now have "200" as your input level, but since each output is 25% of the input, your output level is 50. If you double the input power again (so now at +6 db), the input is now at 400, output is 25% of that, so 100.

Last, I'm really not suggesting the splitter has failed. But, it's no secret Dish's tuners aren't the best. If it is failing because of a lack of signal, the power loss from a splitter may be causing it. Bypassing the splitter and seeing if the situation improves is easy (a LOT easier than moving an antenna). Corrosion on connectors is another good check.

ETA: to change math. Grr. A 6db gain would quadruple (double + double) the signal strength.

I realized I messed up last night but since someone had quoted my post I was unable to correct it.
I was thinking in terms of strictly dbs like on a meter. So if you started with power levels at -30dbms and you had -3 it would be a 10% db loss. I was not thinking in terms of the actual signal in whuch you are correct that every 3db loss is half. So I apologize.

 

[Bobby]

I found a barrel to tie the antenna wire (amped) to the coax going to the Hopper and installed it. I'm afraid my previous post was a little hasty. The wind has come up a little now and I am getting some distortion on the far channels that used to come in very well. Could indicate the trees blowing in the wind. These channels are approximately 75 miles away. According to the Dish strength meter, on the 3 major network channels I am getting the following percentages as measured over about 20 seconds each. Fox 86 to 91%, NBC 82 to 92% and ABC 71 to 85%. I suppose the fluctuation could be attributed to trees blowing in the wind.
I sure am enjoying the discussion on here and willing to try any possible solutions, short of cutting the neighbors trees down.

It might be the trees blowing or it might be the antenna or the cabling blowing in the wind. A question, are the far stations, 75 miles, the ones receiving from the side of the antenna? You might actually be asking too much of that antenna to maintain good reception in the two directions. Perhaps a dual antenna setup as opposed to the rotor might be helpful. There are some trick associated with dual antenna setups. If you are not familiar with that you might seek some professional help. Speaking of that rotor, are you able to turn the antenna and then receive those far stations better? stations

 

[11555h]

It might be the trees blowing or it might be the antenna or the cabling blowing in the wind. A question, are the far stations, 75 miles, the ones receiving from the side of the antenna? You might actually be asking too much of that antenna to maintain good reception in the two directions. Perhaps a dual antenna setup as opposed to the rotor might be helpful. There are some trick associated with dual antenna setups. If you are not familiar with that you might seek some professional help. Speaking of that rotor, are you able to turn the antenna and then receive those far stations better? stations

The far stations are the ones that the antenna is pointing at. The stations coming in on the side are about 45 miles away and sometimes we have to turn the antenna to see them without interruption.

 

[sam_gordon]

I found a barrel to tie the antenna wire (amped) to the coax going to the Hopper and installed it. I'm afraid my previous post was a little hasty. The wind has come up a little now and I am getting some distortion on the far channels that used to come in very well. Could indicate the trees blowing in the wind. These channels are approximately 75 miles away. According to the Dish strength meter, on the 3 major network channels I am getting the following percentages as measured over about 20 seconds each. Fox 86 to 91%, NBC 82 to 92% and ABC 71 to 85%. I suppose the fluctuation could be attributed to trees blowing in the wind.
I sure am enjoying the discussion on here and willing to try any possible solutions, short of cutting the neighbors trees down.

So the distortion is still happening even with the splitter bypassed? Then yes, you need to look at other issues. 75 miles away is pretty big ask IMO.

 

[KAB]

So the distortion is still happening even with the splitter bypassed? Then yes, you need to look at other issues. 75 miles away is pretty big ask IMO.

To play it safe, he needs to go with Dish locals. Too much time and too many calories spent for that far away.

 

[KAB]

The far stations are the ones that the antenna is pointing at. The stations coming in on the side are about 45 miles away and sometimes we have to turn the antenna to see them without interruption.

To play it safe, you should to go with Dish locals. Too much time and too many calories spent for 75 miles away. You already wasted 4 or five months worth with the new adapter. Hope you can return it.

 

[Bobby]

To play it safe, you should to go with Dish locals. Too much time and too many calories spent for 75 miles away. You already wasted 4 or five months worth with the new adapter. Hope you can return it.

His issue there is that his locals are not the ones that he wants as his primary stations. He is in the Lansing DMA and really wants to watch Detroit. Unfortunately, Detroit is the furthest away. Even with his antenna aimed directly to the Detroit towers he is getting variances in signal. He did say earlier that he gets Detroit perfectly when wired directly to his TV tuner. The Dish OTA adapter is finicky with low or wavering signals, that is his real answer.

 

[11555h]

His issue there is that his locals are not the ones that he wants as his primary stations. He is in the Lansing DMA and really wants to watch Detroit. Unfortunately, Detroit is the furthest away. Even with his antenna aimed directly to the Detroit towers he is getting variances in signal. He did say earlier that he gets Detroit perfectly when wired directly to his TV tuner. The Dish OTA adapter is finicky with low or wavering signals, that is his real answer.

No Bobby, I may have misled you. Up until about 2 months ago everything was coming in real good thru the Dish OTA set up. I have since hooked directly to the tv tuner and reception has been much better, plus when it does get interrupted that way it doesn't shut down the system and take 5 or 10 minutes to reboot. Plus I can't record programs that way. I did by-pass the splitter today and early this morning everything was coming in great through my Dish system. Then the sun and the wind came up and started being finicky again. You are correct in that I would prefer the Detroit channels rather than what I would get from Dish locals. My original question was to see if there was anything in the Dish system that is a know weakness, such as the OTA adapter. Throughout all of this I have been able, with all of your help, to eliminate some possibilities without alot of effort or expense on my part. I think at this point I will wait until the fall when there are no leafs on the trees and see if that takes care of the problem. If not then I will get some help and take the antenna/tower down and check connections and replace some of the RG6 cable. If that doesn't do it I will probably go with Dish for locals and stay with the antenna straight to the tv tuner for Detroit locals even with some interruptions. I can record our wanted network programs on the Dish locals although I'm not sure they aren't having some dispute with a network now. Thanks again for all you help and suggestions. I will report any positive new.

 

[MikeD-C05]

N

View attachment 172441

Now that is a HUGE antenna. That would blow off our roof in a hurricane down here.

 

[man00]

Some of my OTA channels have strong signal 90's and they still freeze randomly