to you laserdisc guys?

[gadgtfreek]

Now that I think we're past the vhs/beta stage, I hear a lot of laserdisc comments.

Couple of questions since I missed that ordeal:

*) Did laserdisc have the support we see nowadays with HDM?

*) Do you think the fact we are in an information society helps things from failing/or better to fail? I can imagine many (except for tech guys) had no idea what LD and Beta was, but more and more people are into gaming and the internet forums and I think they have a better idea of HDM.

 

[teachsac]

Damn Elway, I can't even remember what I had for lunch 2 hours ago let alone 20-some-odd years ago I think the information age is doing more to promote the HDM now than back in the LD days. Even Empire Strikes Back was available on LD. But choice was limited back then also. LD was a huge leap in quality above tape media. Problem was the discs were big (size of an LP). Then came DVD and offered a jump in quality over tape, small discs, and you didn't have to flip the disc to watch the other half of the movie. But the video quality was not as good. Kind of like the difference between MP3 and CD or CD and SACD/DVD-A.

As I've said, I don't think BD will be the media to replace DVD. There is a very small window open for that, and BD can't meet that timeline. BD will exist on a higher level than LD did back in the day but won't reach mass adoption. DVD will live as the format of choice until a superduper format comes along and is not challenged.

S~

 

[gadgtfreek]

You have to wonder nowadays if that format will ever come. These companies cant seem to get along.

The onl reason I knew what laserdisc was is because someone I knew at CCity told me about it.

I really did not get involved until DVD.

Bought my first player 02-2000 for $399
Bought my second player in late 2001(first on died) for $199

So being the first dvd player was released in late 1996, these prices aint so hot. See my point?

Guys are bitching because BD players are $300 at 2 years, I dont get it. Also, when I bought my player in 2000, there was very LITTLE rental support, thats Three years after the first.

I think HDM has still got a good shot.

 

[akodoreign]

You have to wonder nowadays if that format will ever come. These companies cant seem to get along.

The onl reason I knew what laserdisc was is because someone I knew at CCity told me about it.

I really did not get involved until DVD.

Bought my first player 02-2000 for $399
Bought my second player in late 2001(first on died) for $199

So being the first dvd player was released in late 1996, these prices aint so hot. See my point?

Guys are bitching because BD players are $300 at 2 years, I dont get it. Also, when I bought my player in 2000, there was very LITTLE rental support, thats Three years after the first.

I think HDM has still got a good shot.

I had a laserdisk player (it was the only format besides VHS you could get the Robotech saga on for a long time).

The disks degraded quickly and are no longer useable

It didn't have much support. Or advertising.

Sony burned me for a lot of money on that.

 

[teachsac]

There are a lot of problems for BD being the mass adopted format. Less than $300 on sale, sure. Prices are back to $399 this week for BD1400 and Sony 300 at BB and 349/369 respectively at CC. Plus there are around say 500,000 1.0 compliant players on the market.

Problem 2:
These are not final profile compliant. With BD starting to release these titles, uninformed buyers will not be able to take advantage of these features.

Problem 3:
Disc prices. Must be 19.99 and less for mass adoption. Sony and Fox are far from that. DIsney MSRP is a few dollars less. $34.99 and up is the standard for Day/Date releases. You're still looking at $29 and up for catalog titles. You don;t think BB/CC are going to sell these at 19.99.

Problem 4:
Regular people aren't going to buy a PS3 to watch movies on regardless of how good it is. Attach rates show that.

Here is what BD needs to do and do quick to be adopted:
1. They need an entry level player similar to the A3 for $99-149. Doesn't have to do 1080p and especially 1080p/24. Only a handful of people have a TV capable of accepting and displaying 1080p/24 correctly. Not counting FP, you're limited to Sony and Pioneer Plasma. More than 80% of HDTVs are 720p only.
2. They need a profile 2.0 player for $199, or minimum 1.1 profile so users can take advantage interactivity.
3. HDM software needs to be $19.99 street and $24.99-$27.99 for limited edition sets. And Day/Date releases need to be discounted when they are released just like DVDs.
4. Eliminate SD DVD. This is why I think HD DVD could have been the format to replace DVD. Combo discs or TL Twin. I don't know if they can do this though.

Unfortunately, I don't see this happening, especially anytime soon. HD DVD had most of this in place but couldn't follow through, but came close. Even Merrick, one the biggest BD supporters, knew that BD was only a pen click away a week ago from losing this thing.

S~

 

[rad]

I remember back when VHS/Beta decks started to make inroads into homes they were a >$500 item, blank tapes were $20 and movies were $80, and that's back when a dollar was worth something. I think folks are underestimating what the consumer will spend.

 

[akodoreign]

I remember back when VHS/Beta decks started to make inroads into homes they were a >$500 item, blank tapes were $20 and movies were $80, and that's back when a dollar was worth something. I think folks are underestimating what the consumer will spend.

Back then though there was nothing, Recording shows and watching movies at home was the high class thing to do.

Now your asking an entire nation to purchase a format that they may not want....

I doubt it is the same situation.

 

[rad]

Back then though there was nothing, Recording shows and watching movies at home was the high class thing to do.

Now your asking an entire nation to purchase a format that they may not want....

I doubt it is the same situation.

True, the entertainment options were more limited. But I don't see the point of 'asking an entier nation to purchase a format that they may not want...'. I haven't seen anything that says the nation MUST stop purchasing DVD and purchase high definition players/media. If the studios make the content that people want to see there might be a bigger market out there then you think.

 

[akodoreign]

True, the entertainment options were more limited. But I don't see the point of 'asking an entier nation to purchase a format that they may not want...'. I haven't seen anything that says the nation MUST stop purchasing DVD and purchase high definition players/media. If the studios make the content that people want to see there might be a bigger market out there then you think.

You see you just answered yourself. Average consumers (not us hard core boys) will not see the need to spend 300+ on a player when their 99 up scaler works just fine.

Most people don't have 1080p sets anyway.

it will have to fall to $150 or less to succeed period. otherwise they will be stuck in 10% of the market.

 

[allargon]

Upscaler? HDTV penetration is like 30%. (I don't believe that 50% by the end of the year.) Most of that 30% doesn't even get HD programming. They feed analog cable and SD DVD (only upconverted by the display) into their sets, and they think it looks fine.

I don't know WTF Warner polled about HDM format confusion holding up DVD sales. The format war didn't hold off sales of Pirates or Transformers on SD DVD.

Samsung has even gone on record saying they're targeting videophiles and people with higher end setups. Someone else said that Sony said the same thing. (I haven't read the quote.)

I would shake my head if Universal just said screw it and skipped to downloads like the porn industry is doing. The porn producers already publicly complained about Blu-Ray replication costs. Welcome to niche.

10% of the market? I think they will hit 5% tops unless they bring the players to under $200 MSRP QUICKLY.

 

[teachsac]

Universal already has HD download agreements in place as does Paramount.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Good points.

Can DVD and BD Co-exist to the point where the studios will keep giving us support if the players stay in the $200-$300 range and the movies $20.

I personally dont see issue with $300(people spend that much on gps units and those things are everywhere), like I said DVD player prices were higher longer, but maybe most are happy with the $50 apex dvd player and thats the issue. DVD was a major leap over VHS.

Even if BD does not kill DVD, I think theyll co-exist as long as we get the support. % years from now people will be buying only BD players because most tv's will be 1080p and cheap. IMHO.

Then someone will be pushing the next video format and we'll all sell our 1080p tvs and bd players to overpay for that so we can argue some more

 

[gadgtfreek]

What do we think the chinese player price will be? 1.1 compliant?

 

[akodoreign]

What do we think the chinese player price will be? 1.1 compliant?

Possibly. I would assume that the latest firmware would be implemented on these devices. Now upgrades might be far and few between down the road. Like most chinese electronics.

 

[teachsac]

What do we think the chinese player price will be? 1.1 compliant?

Well the Daewoo was announced at CEDIA to be 2.0. No working prototype at that time (unlike the 1.1 Denon). No word on where it stands at this moment. Maybe they'll have it at CES. I would expect 349-399 MSRP.

 

[gadgtfreek]

I hope they hit 1.1 and $250. That would help this out I think.

I would rather HDM live over downloads.

 

[teachsac]

I think DVD and HDM can and will coexist. But it won't be at the mass adoption of DVD. I'm thinking maybe 15-20% penetration.

S~

 

[Zookster]

It's all about marketing. If all but the real cheapo computers have BD drives (just like almost every computer now has DVD-/+R, which initially was a real premium upgrade), standalones drop to the $150-$200 range, and all the studios, retailers, and electronics manufacturers get behind pushing BD as the new standard (just like DVD became), that's exactly what it will become. Just like there are very few people under the age of 65 buying a TV today that would consider getting anything other than an HD compatible set, unless TV/movie viewing just wasn't that much of a priority to them. (I have some female friends that are more than happy with their 13" TVs with antenna and watching an occaisional DVD on their computers.)

 

[uli2000]

I had a laserdisk player (it was the only format besides VHS you could get the Robotech saga on for a long time).

The disks degraded quickly and are no longer useable

It didn't have much support. Or advertising.

Sony burned me for a lot of money on that.

Not entirely true. Yes, some of the early LD titles from the late 70's and early 80's (and pretty much any Sony title made after 1990) have a problem know as disk rot. Same thing happens to Cd's (and I presume one day, maybe dvds and HDM) as well. the data layer of the disk is made of aluminum cover by a thin laquered layer. On some of these disks, the laquer slowly wears off in places, causing oxidation of the aluminum. You could see it by holding it up to the light and seeing little pin prick sized 'holes' in the disc. It came from poor manufacturing. I just recently last month sold my last LD player and discs, and out of all the discs I ever owned, I only had 2 or 3 that had any rot (they were sony titles).


It had quite a bit of support, actually. Pioneer was the biggest LD manufacturer and made players up untill 2003 or 2004. I think the last big US release was in 1999 and in Japan about 2004. It was quite big in Japan. In fact, they had a Hi def LD system called MUSE that had hi def optical media to the consumer in 1991, 15 years before HD-DVD/Blu ray.

I think LD's biggest downfall was the price. Players never were below $400. This was a big deal when you could get a VCR for $400 or less, and it could record. Plus, media was never priced to own, usually discs had MSRP's of $99 or more. But it gave us many innovations that really took off on dvd, like multi channel soundtracks (Dolby Digital and DTS were used for years on LD before DVD), extras, alternate audio tracks like comentaries, and for the most part, OAR was pretty much standard. Nothing looked better than watching LD thru a good line doubler/quadrupler and a awesome CRT projector!.

 

[mike123abc]

When Pioneer dropped LD they had a blow out sale in their warehouse then LD was no more in the US. I was halfway through ST DS9 season when they stopped making them. I have all ST TNG on LD.

LD went out in a puff of smoke. It was surprising how fast they liquidated their warehouses. If they do the same to HD-DVD, I think people will be shocked how fast it goes away.