TIVO vs E*

[vampz26]

Greg, remember, ignore vampz and his talk about MPEG2 vs MPEG4. Seems he really can't let it drop ... everyone did good for a few days or so on this too.

But its a very relative point to the whole synchronization issue...

denial doesn't change that.

 

[jacmyoung]

Yes. One digital format.

"The TV streams are converted to an Moving Pictures Experts Group (MPEG) formatted stream for internal transfer and manipulation and are parsed and separated it into video and audio components."

First is was just the one, mpeg 2 available at the time this was writen, and now there are two. Both use different compression algorithms for their video and audio components, and are thus synchronized differently. This claim clearly needs to be revisited...

Thanks for clarifying my point.

Actually they argued about MPEG-I during the trial too, so they were discussing at least two MPEG formats back then already. Adding MPEG4 on top of them will not change much.

 

[Smith P.]

Picture's elements compressed different in MPEG-4 by H.264/AVC or VC-1 algos, not the time stamps.

 

[jacmyoung]

Nope, doesn't required - used same PTS i.e. time-stamps format, because it doesn't compressed at all.

Yes that is the key term, time stamps, not I-frame.

TiVo's invention is about how to parse out audio and video time stamps, then separate them, then temporarily store them, then some "source object" can "extract" them, then the video time stamps are converted into some "data stream", i.e. index table, then the index table is filled into a buffer...

I mistakenly used the term "I-frame" because you began to use "I-frame" and I thought you were using "I-frame" to describe the start codes or time stamps. Now you had clarified it, let's drop the term I-frame. I-frame has nothing to do with TiVo's invention, TiVo's invention is about start codes or more appropriately time stamps.

 

[vampz26]

Nope, doesn't required - used same PTS i.e. time-stamps format, because it doesn't compressed at all.

Excuse me? You're going to have to do better than that to refute my claim...

I know for a fact that the audio/video synchronization is handled differently between mpeg2 and mpeg4 because the audio/video components THEMSELVES are handled differently. I've dabbled in code myself.

Are you going to tell me, even in layman terms, that mpeg2 and mpeg4, given their significantly different compression ratios, that your one-liner makes any sense?

 

[vampz26]

Actually they argued about MPEG-I during the trial too, so they were discussing at least two MPEG formats back then already. Adding MPEG4 on top of them will not change much.

Or it changes everything.

mpeg1 and mpeg2 do not differ much. mpeg4 is the juggernaut in the mix handling audio video components much differently than its predecessors.

 

[jacmyoung]

...I know for a fact that the audio/video synchronization is handled differently between mpeg2 and mpeg4 ...

But why is audio/video sync an issue in the TiVo's patent? I don't see where it requires that audio/video sync to be a part of the invention.

I do not see such requirement in the hardware claims, nor the software claims, nor the patent specification. I might have missed it. Can anyone point out where the audio/video sync is addressed?

 

[vampz26]

Yes that is the key term, time stamps, not I-frame.

TiVo's invention is about how to parse out audio and video time stamps, then separate them, then temporarily store them, then some "source object" can "extract" them, then the video time stamps are converted into some "data stream", i.e. index table, then the index table is filled into a buffer...

I mistakenly used the term "I-frame" because you began to use "I-frame" and I thought you were using "I-frame" to describe the start codes or time stamps. Now you had clarified it, let's drop the term I-frame. I-frame has nothing to do with TiVo's invention, TiVo's invention is about start codes or more appropriately time stamps.

What are these timestamps being calculated from and synchronized too?

Certainly they would need to correspond to the format of the decoded transmission in some regard.

 

[vampz26]

But why is audio/video sync an issue in the TiVo's patent? I don't see where it requires that audio/video sync to be a part of the invention.

I do not see such requirement in the hardware claims, nor the software claims, nor the patent specification. I might have missed it. Can anyone point out where the audio/video sync is addressed?

Go back and read the thread...its been covered extensively...than you can decide what you 'choose' to accept.

Its pretty scary if I can keep track of things while being banned better than the actual participants.

 

[jacmyoung]

Go back and read the thread...its been covered extensively...than you can decide what you 'choose' to accept.

Its pretty scary if I can keep track of things while being banned better than the actual participants.

Please, asking me to go back and read again as if I have not read this thread enough already?

The only time audio/video sync was mentioned was when Smith P. said something about audio and video needs to be in sync for playback, but not with DVR trickplays, as I have pointed out already trickplays do not involve any audio, only video.

During any DVR trickplays you do not ever hear any audio, only see video. And this TiVo patent is all about DVR trickplays. If it talked about just your normal recording and playback like a VCR, the patent would never have been granted. How audio and video must sync is important for TV viewing of course, but it is not what this invention is about.

 

[Smith P.]

Yes that is the key term, time stamps, not I-frame.

TiVo's invention is about how to parse out audio and video time stamps, then separate them, then temporarily store them, then some "source object" can "extract" them, then the video time stamps are converted into some "data stream", i.e. index table, then the index table is filled into a buffer...

I mistakenly used the term "I-frame" because you began to use "I-frame" and I thought you were using "I-frame" to describe the start codes or time stamps. Now you had clarified it, let's drop the term I-frame. I-frame has nothing to do with TiVo's invention, TiVo's invention is about start codes or more appropriately time stamps.

I have deep feeling "start code" and I-frame are interchangeable here.

As to substitute I-frame by time-stamps - no that would be different component for different purpose.
Time-stamps - for sync video/audio.
I-frames - 'it's your stones thru swamp', ie for smooth trick play. Adding to that: you can't avoid sync during trick play - user could start watching any time during the trick functions.

 

[vampz26]

Please, asking me to go back and read again as if I have not read this thread enough already?

The only time audio/video sync was mentioned was when Smith P. said something about audio and video needs to be in sync for playback, but not with DVR trickplays, as I have pointed out already trickplays do not involve any audio, only video.

During any DVR trickplays you do not ever hear any audio, only see video. And this TiVo patent is all about DVR trickplays. If it talked about just your normal recording and playback like a VCR, the patent would never have been granted.

Yes, exactly...and your point?

Last I checked, the audio and video still need to sync up after a trick play...

 

[Smith P.]

What are these timestamps being calculated from and synchronized too?

Certainly they would need to correspond to the format of the decoded transmission in some regard.

It was INSERTED during recording.

 

[vampz26]

It was INSERTED during recording.

based on what formula?

its not a random determination now, is it?

 

[jacmyoung]

I have deep feeling "start code" and I-frame are interchangeable here.

Not true, when TiVo talked about start codes during the trial, it was all about time stamps, which had both the audio time stamps and the video time stamps.

As to substitute I-frame by time-stamps - no that would be different component for different purpose.
Time-stamps - for sync video/audio.
I-frames - 'it's your stones thru swamp', ie for smooth trick play. Adding to that: you can't avoid sync during trick play - user could start watching any time during the trick functions.

Audio time stamps and video time stamps may be important for audio and video sync purpose, but this invention is not about using those time stamps to sync audio and video, rather to use those time stamps, more specifically the video time stamps, to help do DVR trickplays.

The fact audio and video must sync is not the invention here. In fact if this invention were about audio and video sync, it would not have been an invention. The MPEG formats were invented long ago to address the audio and video sync issue, long before this TiVo invention.

 

[Smith P.]

I'm pointing - both timestamps and I-Frame's positions are key components for produce trick play.

 

[vampz26]

Not true, when TiVo talked about start codes during the trial, it was all about time stamps, which had both the audio time stamps and the video time stamps.



Audio time stamps and video time stamps may be important for audio and video sync purpose, but this invention is not about using those time stamps to sync audio and video, rather to use those time stamps, more specifically the video time stamps, to help do DVR trickplays.

The fact audio and video must sync is not the invention here. In fact if this invention were about audio and video sync, it would not have been an invention. The MPEG formats were invented long ago to address the audio and video sync issue, long before this TiVo invention.

Bingo

Audio/Video DO need to sync up during/after trickplays regardless. That too has to be part of the invention or, as you pointed out...its not an invention...

You may have within the scope of your post, exposed Tivo's patent as illegitimate exactly as Klegg and myself said it was...

interesting...

 

[vampz26]

I'm pointing - both timestamps and I-Frame's positions are key components for produce trick play.

but have yet to clarify how they are calculated...

 

[jacmyoung]

...Last I checked, the audio and video still need to sync up after a trick play...

As I have explained, audio and video sync is important for TV viewing, but this invention is not about audio and video sync. This invention does take the advantage of the time stamps in the MPEG streams, but not for the purpose of audio and video sync, rather for DVR trickplays. So much so that the claims only talked about converting only the video time stamps, not audio time stamps.

How the MPEG decoders sync the audio and video is a prior art, an invention predated this TiVo's DVR invention. TiVo could not have had a patent on the audio/video sync technology even if they had tried.

 

[Smith P.]

based on what formula?

its not a random determination now, is it?

Just came from independent time generator and converted to specific format (Line22 for VCR, or PTS for digital source) and inserted during recording; all transforms/compression must preserve the time stamps - VCR or DVD or DVR will sync by those signals/stamps in case of dropping any part of the stream or during trick play.