Sometimes I wonder - A Scott Comentary

[rtt2]

More HD may indeed move to the wing satellites and if this is the E* plan I believe I understand the rational behind the delay for new channels.
I find it coincidential that the new DPP44 switch is coming out the same time as those channel additions charle mentioned. If they put new HD channels up on the wings the new super dish owners would not be able to get them before the DPP44 came out. And why would Dish pay for programming when all its HD subscibers could not receive it?

 

[James Long]

The future is HD and digital, keep up or get left out.

agreed, the government has MANDATED this. The FCC has said that EVERYTHING over the air has to be DTV by 2007.
people should stop thinking that HDTV is a fringe group.

The FCC is *NOT* mandating HDTV (defined: 16x9 ratio in 1080i or 720p) they are mandating DTV (any of the formats down to 480i, which is basically the same as NTSC).

DTV broadcasters must have one free reception feed which must 100% mirror the OTA NTSC feed by 04-01-2005. (As of 04-01-03 a 50% mirror is required, as of 04-01-04 a 75% mirror is required.)

The choice to air HD or how to fill the rest of the DTV channel (additional feeds or PPV) is entirely up to the broadcaster. Technically speaking, a station could 100% mirror their NTSC feed in 480i and use the rest of their feed for a 720p subscription or PPV movie / events channel.

And, the kicker, the FCC has not made any ruling for carriage of any DTV feed. So DBS and cable don't have to touch them at all.

HDTV is a *growing* fringe group. Over the next two years consumers will be forced to join the DTV group, but there is no requirement to go HDTV.

JL

 

[avaddict]

correct.... but as more and more of the popular programs are starting to be recorded/ broadcast in HD, the chances of networks deciding to do everything in lower res 480 formats declines. (IMO)
I am actually amazed that my local CBS station has their prime-time shows all in HD :shock:
They even throw an HD movie our way every once in a while.

I never said they *HAD* to do HD, but do you really think when everyone *HAS* to change over they will stick with 480i???

My guess is not....

 

[Stargazer]

If the FCC does not require DBS to stop converting then there would be a huge advantage to stick or subscribe to DBS, to still use your existing analog televisions. Is this going to be a requirement for cable or is this just for signals OTA?

 

[avaddict]

just OTA
hopefully, to stay *competetive* with the OTA HDTV (if it is HDTV), cable and DBS will have to do something to compete.

As it is, I almost get better HDTV from the antenna on my roof (free) than what Dish/Comcast is offering.
I never thought I'd put an antenna back up, but at $149 + no monthly fee, and no contract, I couldn't resist

cant get HBO/Showtime/etc. though.......

 

[James Long]

I never said they *HAD* to do HD, but do you really think when everyone *HAS* to change over they will stick with 480i???

You did mix the DTV requirement with your HD opinion, but that is your right.

I believe there will be plenty of 480i production and broadcast beyond NTSC television.

Look at the similar conversion to color. Most sources were black and white and stations had all black and white cameras. Then color was introduced. Stations first upgraded to pass the color network signals. Then stations bought a pair of color cameras so they could originate color. Networks and syndicators switched to color as their money allowed. "In Color" became a big drawing card, like "Air Conditioned" movie theatres.

That is where we are now, to a point. Stations can generate a DTV signal and most can pass an HDTV signal from a network. Expensive equipment is available to do overlays (such as the watermark graphics) on that HD signal, and to upconvert NTSC or SDTV feeds to HD. But *most* stations do not have the ability to produce an HD program of any kind - *many* can only air in HD exactly what they get on the network at that moment ... no HD recorders at the station level. Some stations now own HD cameras and can originate HD. And the national production houses are moving to HD as quick as they can. "In HD" is the digital drawing in card, just like "In Color" once was.

It is going to take time for stations to upgrade to HD. Many stations are struggling to get any DTV signal on the air, let alone pour their money into HD production. SD will be most prominent for another decade.

Besides, stations have discovered that there is more to DTV than HD. A lot of stations are multicasting two or more feeds. Our local PBS is planning SD multicasts during the daytime and an HD feed only during the evening or special events. TV is bandwidth, just like the rest of the world. 19.39Mbps at your service to carve up as they see fit. They can even stream computer files for data downloads.

JL

 

[rad]

I had a long phone conversation with an engineer/designer of the 811 this afternoon to go over the problems that I've seen with the 811. Here's what I've learned, which is all subject to change if the testing turns up a problem.

- A new download should be out by this weekend to bring back the aspect ratio change function. He agreed that the 811 should have been released with at least the same functionality of the 6000 but there were some problems with the chip set that couldn't get resolved in time, but they feel they have a handle on it now.

So is the chip problem a software or hardware fix?

- They did change the black level of the 811 compared to the 6000, they 6000 was higer then it should be, but they might have gone a bit too far the other way, they're looking into it.

So is the black level problem a software or hardware fix?

- Interactive weather should be in the next release and the full Dish Interactive function in the release after that.

So are the Interactive Features a software or hardware fix?

- He's going to look into the problem that some have reported about the quality of the analog OTA channels, he thinks it might be an issue with the line doubler in the box.

So is this problem a software or hardware fix?

Thanks for this report.

I got the impression that all the fixes will be done via a software upgrade, not a hardware swap. But who knows they could run into something that pops up in testing and they find they can do a software fix.

 

[gpflepsen]

My fear is that my "First Generation 811" will be made obsolete by a "Second Generation 811" coming in the next release (production run).

By obsolete I mean some of the issues which wouldn't be feature related aren't fixable via software downloads.

 

[Nick]

One thing I haven't heard many people say is that for an entry-level product it is a really sharp, high-end looking piece of equipment.

Harmon

The 811 is not an entry-level product. It is a high-end HD s/a receiver which is currently being offered by Dish at a discounted price. I would recommend the 811 to anyone who wants a reasonable-cost entre' into HD, or a 2nd HD unit.

 

[TheForce]

Not all TV will be HDTV, not for a very long time!

I produce TV for broadcast. While it is true that airing in digital format is a finite FCC requirement for the future, there is no such requirement that TV be produced in digital much less HDTV digital. The choice to do that rests solely on the producer.

Personally, I moved to all digital TV production in 1998. It just made economic sense. I still edit and post produce in analog betacam SP as that is the mainstream format for broadcast TV. I have begun to integrate digital post systems here but onl;y because some parts of digital post work is more economical and offers more creative capability than analog post. However, the meat and potatos of analog editing is still alive and well here for all my real time editing work for betacam SP. When the day comes that DVCPRO or DVCAM or digi betacam becomes the distribution of choice for broadcast I will be ready to switch to that output format. It is just a long way off at this point in time, probably another 4-5 years. But much farther off is the requirement to do everything in HDTV. I suspect I will be long dead before that happens.

While HDTV ios continuing to grow, true HDTV production is very small. Most of the HDTV we see today is some form of upconversion or cross conversion, from program sources that originate in any number of forms from film to VHS camcorder to digibetacm production. Probably one of the most common low end productions being done that end up on HDTV is mini DV and DVCAM shot in wide screen and upconverted to HDTV. The reason for this is the need for more cameras in hard to go places. widescreen DVCAM is just more available and the quality is good enough to upconvert to HDTV. It just looks softer than true HD and often has bigger jaggies on diagonal lines. It also suffers in the keying capability where keys show up as jaggy chunks compared to true HDTV.
Bottom line- HDTV is not required and when we see it, most is not real HDTV but some form of format converted to HD anyway.

 

[wwilson]

Your average consumer isn't going to invest on the HD equipment when there is so little programming available. The providers don't want to invest in the programming when there are so few customers. Somebody has to go first... if you build it they will come.

They do not want to invest that much in HD because there are not nearly as many potential HD customers to get yet.

Compared to the total population of TV owners, HDTV owners are smaller. But as I posted earlier there are about 6 million current HDTV ready customers with no provider, and this is fastest growing set of customers. I wonder how this set of potential customers compares to the set of SDTV users (much larger, I know) that are ready to make the satellite jump (much smaller than total SDTV base for sure).

One thing is true, they have already paid a premium to get HDTV ready, they need to be educated as to who and how they are going to get content. This is called marketing. It's a lot harder to do when you don't have product to sell, or your product is less then the competition.

You need some edge.

I have just looked at my options in the Ann Arbor area:

Both D* and E* offer similar packages at similar prices + or 1 a few hundred for upfront costs as I don't yet have a 8psk module for my 6000.

Comcast offers a comparable HDTV package substituting INHD for HDNET, plus locals that one doesn't need an antenna for (another expense with the sat options).
However, Comcast had said nothing about HD DVR in our area, so that is an unknown future. IN addition Comcast sell's the HD option cheaper but on top of a higher base package price unless you figure on the Top150 or such.

Comcast would offer to displace my DSL service for a lower per month fee, so that might help offset the higer base price.

VOOM clearly offers the best HD package but an inferior SD package. I know we can argue the merits, but a lot of the SO watching is done on BBC and I still have a fondness for cheesy SciFi for the SciFi channel get's watched a lot. Others will have their favorite SD's.

If VOOM becomes serious competition (10 or so more SD's and a HD DVR) , then I think all the options of Cable, D* and E* are not going to get competitive this year. VOOM will suck up the mass market that is currently not served very well. However, their marketing to date in the Sears stores is really poor.

Here in Ann Arbor, the local Sears is still not showing VOOM, the set it is attached to runs the E* HD demo loop, which of course is distributed in SD throughout the store.

IF VOOM was smart they would look at how Bose marketed for many years in Sears, with a custom demo setup where everything worked and was optimized to amaze! Just setting a box up on a RPTV stuck off in the corner is not very compelling.

 

[Stargazer]

For those that have never had cable or satellite before then what Voom would offer would suit some viewers just fine, at least for a while, when it would definitely not suit others that may have had cable or satellite in the past.

The providers such as Dish Network, DirecTv, or Voom should advertise with each HD tv that comes out paying the manufacturer to have their literature with the offers put in the box along with the manual, perhaps on the box itself as well.

 

[xgrep]

Bottom line- HDTV is not required and when we see it, most is not real HDTV but some form of format converted to HD anyway.

It's nice to hear someone confirm what I can see with my eyes. When you do see a 22Mbps MPEG-2 stream, though, it can look pretty nice. It's disappointing to see stuff like Seinfeld reruns being pushed out there on an "HD" broadcast, but it seems that there just isn't that much true original HD content, yet.

x

 

[BobMurdoch]

Also, I bet Charlie is really P.O'ed about SuperDish. Methinks he was sold a bill of goods.

I think it has more to do with the fact that Maine, Florida, Washington, California, and a few other states were having problems seeing the new birds with Superdish. The new satellite will cover this deficiency, but the 180 was probably due to this. It is easier to shift the new locals away from the edges of the lower 48, than to risk making large chunks of HD programming unavailable to all in these areas.

 

[bluuz]

The SuperDish will go down as a minor disaster, and it clearly hasn't been a banner year for Dish. Charlie has been somewhat honest about this in some of his recent statements, but it seems his first instinct is to spin and put a rosey face on things. Understandable, and I suppose it's part of his job as CEO.

Next year is bound to be better. Dish will no doubt find the bandwidth to offer more HD, but IMO they should forget about the Superdish - too big, not practical, workable or marketable. We'll see.

 

[mike123abc]

The SuperDish has finally found its true best use... Locals. It is great for the mostly small markets it serves. The big markets are on Dish500. HD users across the US do not have to have one.

Dish needs to find a small dish way to deliver HD. Another DBS satellite slot or perhaps KA will be the way to go. Leave SuperDish to the smaller markets.

 

[bluuz]

Yep, Mike. I agree with that.

 

[beejaycee]

Just when you think Dish Network learned in the errors of its ways, the mighty ship Echostar once again shows that their is no Captain steering the ship.
<snip>
No HD programming available my ass Mr Ergen.
<snip>
After all that has happened at Dish Network the last few months I must ask myself whats going on? Does management pay attention? Do they even care? To me it appears the answer to both questions are NO.
<snip>
So what is happening at Dish Network that could take their attention off of running a world class satellite service?
<snip>
In my opinion its time for Charlie to step down.

:shock: WOW, Scott! Since becoming an E* subscriber almost 4 years ago, and starting to read these message boards & Usenet groups shortly afterwards, I've always remembered your posts as being very upbeat and positive, even when the 'Chats' have been less than inspiring. If someone from E* reads this board, hopefully they will take this as the stinging wake-up slap it is since you've always appeared to be one of their most ardent supporters.

 

[Stargazer]

Opinions change just like their service. Dish has went down hill in many ways since they have came out. Expectations tend to be higher over time.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Unfortunately opinions are like a**holes and everyone has one. With Dish I think they are full of "opinions " and thus are full of a**holes and they can't seem to get a cohesive winning strategy to use for the future.

All these accounting gimmicks with the dvr fees and now the newer phone line fee if you dont keep the 522 connected to a phone line, are making Dish just like a cable company. These practices are not good at winning new customers nor are they good for retaining current customers.

They use to do anything to win you as a customer and even gave you free dvr service and could care less about keeping your receiver hooked up to a phone line, and now in the last year all that's changed.