Some Dish Info

[havana]

My imaginary conversation with E*

Why are you bitching...our generosity will allow you to enjoy the new “NBC Showcase and Enhanced TV Application” –– “DISH Network subscribers get a multiple-screen NBC Showcase with a 24/7 highlights reel and the NBC Enhanced Application” –– “both on dish home channel 100".

“NBC Showcase will allow viewers to monitor 5 NBC Universal networks on a single TV screen and select the program to view in normal full screen”.

“Enhanced TV Application, accessed through dish home, allows the viewer to access information such as medal counts, event schedules, athlete’’s biographies and more, while programming continues on ¼¼ screen mode. Viewers can return to full-screen mode at any time”.

Did you say you had one of those 921's...our most expensive receiver of all time...WELL THEN NEVER MIND.

 

[Stargazer]

That HD Tivo 3 is looking better and better. It does do MPEG-4 right? I will have to check the specs on it again. One could save enough on the extra fees to make up for the cost of the Tivo itself.

 

[waltinvt]

I don't think you should call a $1000 921 subsidized! It doesn't accept PSIP data streams, you have to subscribe to locals to get the guide data. The 811 gets a 2 day programming guide data for free, yet they charge for it on the 921/942/622. We all pay for that $6/mo "access fee", I'm guessing that is how 811 owners end up paying for their data. If the 921 owner wants it, he pays the $6 access fee, which is hidden in his SD package, he pays the $6/mo DVR fee, and he also has to pay $5/mo for locals. Add them up, he is paying $17 per month for the privlige! Dish could tier it and charge for locals if they wanted a 9 day guide data and say the 2-day guide data is free, like on the 811s. They could also say that the user gets his free PSIP data for free, but he can have the 9-day data if he subscribes to locals. They don't do that, they don't let you have access to the free program data, they just charge you the cost of locals for it.

There are certain Dish apologists here that see things through rose colored glasses.

As for PSIP data, the FCC has mandated strict rules of compliance for stations. If your local is "messing" up their PSIP data and you can't get anywhere by talking to their engineer, then call the FCC.

As for 942s being better that previous OTA HD receivers, I suppose it may seem true for some people but the majority of related posts here and elsewhere say different. Also, there are factors that can lead some people to "think" they're getting a better, stronger signal. One is the difference in the signal meter graduations; 100% versus 125%, etc.

As far as personal experience, I have a brand new $500 roof antenna system with rotor and amp. My 942 does not even register a flicker of a signal on at least 5 stations that my 811 indicates anywhere from 50 - 65%. There is one station I used to get as solid 80+ on with the 811 and now it tops out in the 60s with numurous dropouts. My best stations that used to resister high 90s now only show low 80s and are a lot more fussy to where the rotor is turned.

And in response to "why should Dish subsidize your tuner purchase when all you want is ota?" Nobody said they had to subsidize but neither should they penalize, especially when they market their receivers as OTA capable.

To anyone still not getting it: Before Dish realized they were going to really jump into HD LiLs, they didn't mind so much about providing an OTA digital tuner. It made the units look more competive and it probably wasn't going to eat into their SD LiLs that much.

Now Dish is going into HD LiLs in a big way but they also know they can't dedicate the proper amount of bandwidth, so in most cases, their HD locals probably won't look as good as what you'd get OTA with a decent digital tuner.

Now think about it. Doesn't common sense tell you that providing a good, solid OTA digital tuner, with DVR capability, 9 day EPG and NBR, etc. in a Dish receiver just might reduce the amount of HD LiL packages Dish sells in some areas?

 

[drdr]

As for 942s being better that previous OTA HD receivers, I suppose it may seem true for some people but the majority of related posts here and elsewhere say different. Also, there are factors that can lead some people to "think" they're getting a better, stronger signal. One is the difference in the signal meter graduations; 100% versus 125%, etc.
As far as personal experience, I have a brand new $500 roof antenna system with rotor and amp. My 942 does not even register a flicker of a signal on at least 5 stations that my 811 indicates anywhere from 50 - 65%. There is one station I used to get as solid 80+ on with the 811 and now it tops out in the 60s with numurous dropouts. My best stations that used to resister high 90s now only show low 80s and are a lot more fussy to where the rotor is turned.

I live in a strong signal area where multipath is an issue, and the 942 is better than the 6000. It is possible that the weak signal performance of the 811 is better.

My point is that these are anecdotal data, and do not make for a convincing argument for either side.

These receivers were designed several years ago. E* HD local plans are clearly still in a state of flux. You are trying to convince us that several years ago there was a grand conspiracy to produce inferior OTA receivers to encourage customers to subscribe to LIL HD channels, before there was even a plan to deliver such HD LIL services.

To quote Brian E. Moore,

"In fact, one thing that I have noticed... is that all of these conspiracy theories depend on the perpetrators being endlessly clever. I think you'll find the facts also work if you assume everyone is endlessly stupid. "

 

[waltinvt]

<snip>....
You are trying to convince us that several years ago there was a grand conspiracy to produce inferior OTA receivers to encourage customers to subscribe to LIL HD channels, before there was even a plan to deliver such HD LIL services.

No, yes & no.

 

[jsanders]

That HD Tivo 3 is looking better and better. It does do MPEG-4 right? I will have to check the specs on it again. One could save enough on the extra fees to make up for the cost of the Tivo itself.

The TiVo series three doing MPEG-4? I don't know, maybe it does for the cable inputs. For OTA it isn't necessary, broadcast TV isn't going to move to MPEG-4, it is set in stone with MPEG-2.

 

[Airblair]

There are certain Dish apologists here that see things through rose colored glasses.

I'm going to try to put this as delicately as possible, but here goes . . . there are also certain Dish haters here who are also unwilling to consider reasonable explanations for Dish's actions.

Simply put, there's some hysteria going on here.

First, I haven't seen any evidence that they're actually trying to downgrade their tuners. waltinvt thinks that he's seen more complaints here and elsewhere about the 942's OTA tuners versus older models, but I seriously doubt people would post about anything that is actually working. Also it's my impression that there are a lot more 942s out there than anything else save the 811.

And in response to "why should Dish subsidize your tuner purchase when all you want is ota?" Nobody said they had to subsidize but neither should they penalize, especially when they market their receivers as OTA capable.

You'd have to point me to where their promotional materials said that you wouldn't need a Dish subscription to use their DVRs. Frankly, if you paid $1000 for a 921 solely for its OTA DVR capability, you've entered a brave new world of stupid.

Ya know, scratch that last sentence. I can't remember what the market was at the time for OTA DVRs, so it may have seemed like a reasonable price. I don't, however, think it would be reasonable to assume that Dish was ever interested in being a service-agnostic hardware provider, since they are after all a satellite service.

Now think about it. Doesn't common sense tell you that providing a good, solid OTA digital tuner, with DVR capability, 9 day EPG and NBR, etc. in a Dish receiver just might reduce the amount of HD LiL packages Dish sells in some areas?

You're absolutely right. So why the hell would Dish do it, without trying to get $6 from any non-subscribers? $299 for a 622 is subsidized, and to think that Dish would release these to market without ensuring they will recoup their costs is, in fact, silly.

The point is to force you to subscribe to their locals. The new DirecTV HD DVR that is supposed to come out soon has the OTA tuners removed completely from it.

With the tactics of dish with their HD Only Pack and DirecTV getting rid of the ATSC tuners, the Sony HD OTA DVR or the series 3 HD TiVo are looking very attractive. Those companies need to understand that they also need to market to those that want to augment their free, local programming with free guide data! They need to learn it soon, or they will loose business!

Good lord, man, switch to decaf or something. If the new DirecTV HD DVR doesn't have OTA tuners, complain about it on the DirecTV forum, not here. And if Dish forces you to sub to their locals, just drop them! You have choices, you mentioned them yourself!

Sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, I don't have any axes to grind with any other poster. But I don't see Dish breaking any promises to me; I've heard nothing about any programming I currently get being taken away from me; and I'm fairly certain that on February 1 the sun will rise in the east, regardless of what TV I can watch or what shiny silver box is plugged into my oversized HDTV.

I guess I just don't get how aggravated some of you are getting over this. And I speak as a 921 owner, so I know aggravation.

 

[hammerdown]

....Dish restricts the EPG part of the PSIP data stream for signals received by the 942's OTA tuner and won't pass on their own epg info unless you sub their locals.

And now apparently there will be a $6 surcharge if subs want to use the OTA tuner without subing to certain Dish programming packages.....

Can one of the big dogs straighten this out for me? So far I've heard about these fees:

1. Access fee $6 (monthly: for non qualified prog package)
2. HD Enabling fee $6 (not clear: to enable an mpeg4 box)
3. OTA tuner fee $6 (monthly: force feed the bogus guide data)

#1 -Exists now, just going up $1.
#2 -Sort of a fuzzy rumor at this point, no logical details are being given... ie. Is it monthly?
#3 -Never heard of this one. If I were a 211 owner and don't want thier guide data can I just say no?

Are all these fees one in the same, just given different names in each thread/post? Or are we talking $18 in monthly fees? Do some of these only apply to DVR/Dual tuner box?

Hammer

 

[samatha6]

Welcome to Satellite guys

As i understand it, there will be a fee for accessing OTA (see http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=53793) if you don't subscribe to a HD package on Feb 1st.
So i think upgrade or not, you are OK on OTA without a fee, if you keep an HD pack.
How they will control this is unclear to me.

OMG.. I have a 811HD and I cancelled the 10 dollar HDpack since it was worthless to me. But I still use the OTA on the 811 and get 12 stations. I was interested in getting the new universal channel.. but the way Charlie is bundling HD now.. it would raise my bill almost 20 dollars a month. I plan on doing nothing when FEB 1 comes. I am not interested in Dishes' HD plans anymore.. they want too much money and it sounds like they will have few if any tier options. Currently, I have a 322 with two sets.. both can record from guide to VCR.. it works really good and no DVR fee for that.. My 811HD can also record to VCR from the guide. I think my setup is pretty good having three sets on the AT120 with 12 OTA digital locals. All that for 50 a month which is not bad. But if they decide to add some kind of extra fee for my 811HD.. I am not going to be happy. I think the fee hike this year is enough.. too much in fact.

 

[KyDave]

......But if they decide to add some kind of extra fee for my 811HD.. I am not going to be happy. I think the fee hike this year is enough.. too much in fact.

That fee you are talking about is only for newer mpeg4 boxes. There is another thread around here that says Dish will only consider the NEWER BOXES (411,vip211,vip222,vip622) as HD boxes. The 811 will no longer be classified as an HD box after 2/1, so no $6 fee for not having the $20 hd pack (since the 811 won't be able to get all of the new HD pack channels.)

 

[dlsnyder]

When I leased my 811 in April of 2005 they threw in a 50% discount on the HD pack for the term of my one year lease. When that expires this year they will start charging me the full $9.99/mo for the current HD pack which I almost never watch. There is NO WAY that I am going to shell out for a new HD receiver at this point and be forced to pay for the new HD pack at $20/mo PLUS the $6/mo HD receiver fee for 18 months. I have thought about continuing the lease on the 811 after 04/01 but shutting off the HD pack, but with all the bugs that thing has had I will probably just send it back and go back to my old 301 (purchased for $25 at a WalMart closeout). I may even pick up a standalone OTA HD receiver to go with it. The Sylvania unit is available at BB for $229 right now, but I don't know anything about it.

 

[samatha6]

Thats a relief. I'll just stay where I am with the 811. Its has an excellent OTA tuner and I get every station in albuquerque with good signal strength. There is alot of good HD on the networks.. much better then the current HD pack.. I did not care for HDNET.. HDMOVIES etc.. but watching CSI, LOST and LATE NIGHT etc... on the 811HD... for free can't be beat. I guess I will get the superbowl as well since I get ABCHD OTA.. Unless Dish comes out with some budget HD tiers instead of the all or nothing bronze, silver etc... I am staying out. Maybe when HD gets more mainstream, it might get cheaper.... but I am probably dreaming.

I think if the new HD dvd players catch on fast enough.. its going to put pressure on Dish and others to lower HD content prices.

 

[samatha6]

I have thought about continuing the lease on the 811 after 04/01 but shutting off the HD pack, but with all the bugs that thing has had I will probably just send it back and go back to my old 301 (purchased for $25 at a WalMart closeout). I may even pick up a standalone OTA HD receiver to go with it. The Sylvania unit is available at BB for $229 right now, but I don't know anything about it.

Do you turn off your 811HD everynight? Because it won't update if you don't do that and I found that makes the receiver crash more often..requiring a reboot etc... I found that by turning it off.. it always gets the latest firmware.. plus it is more stable.

I don't know if you ever use the OTA HD tuner.. but it is a good one.. and it puts those channels right in the guide.

 

[jbcheshire]

The TiVo series three doing MPEG-4? I don't know, maybe it does for the cable inputs. For OTA it isn't necessary, broadcast TV isn't going to move to MPEG-4, it is set in stone with MPEG-2.

This doesn't sound right to me. How is/are the sat companies going to do locals in MPEG4 if the local companies themselves don't do MPEG4??? Can someone whom is more versed in this explain please?

 

[iceondsom]

I have thought about continuing the lease on the 811 after 04/01 but shutting off the HD pack....

No can do. If you have an 811 activated you will be billed for the HD Pack. You are not permitted to leave an 811 activated and not subscribe to the HD Pack.

Sorry.

 

[jsanders]

This doesn't sound right to me. How is/are the sat companies going to do locals in MPEG4 if the local companies themselves don't do MPEG4??? Can someone whom is more versed in this explain please?

Just ask yourself a few questions about it. First, the FCC is in control of the format for terrestrial broadcasting (the modulation and encoding scheme), and they set the standard. It would take an act of congress to tell broadcasters to switch to MPEG-4. Then, think about the hassles. How many Stand alone ATSC tuners would have to be swapped out in the whole country? How many TVs with built in tuners would become useless? Dish can switch to MPEG-4 to save bandwidth because they control all of the boxes that receive their signals. Who controls all of the OTA tuners? There isn't one single company. The government gives them the specifications. Even more so, where is the bandwidth limitation for a broadcaster? They may try multicasting, which the jury is still out on, but they are given the whole 19.2Mbs to do it. Even if they take 5Mbs for some other channel, they are still giving more bandwidth than one of Dish's HD Lite channels!

If the satellite company wants to convert, they use a transcoder to do it. I think there will be limitations to that, as I haven't heard that "real time" MPEG-4 encoders are ready for use as of yet. But, who cares, the whole MPEG-4 thing is a sham anyway at the moment, as it is just MPEG-2 with MPEG-4 headers.

 

[jsanders]

No can do. If you have an 811 activated you will be billed for the HD Pack. You are not permitted to leave an 811 activated and not subscribe to the HD Pack.

I believe that is true only for leased receivers!

 

[BFG]

yes, and the poster said he leases his 811,so what's the problem?

 

[jbcheshire]

Just ask yourself a few questions about it. First, the FCC is in control of the format for terrestrial broadcasting (the modulation and encoding scheme), and they set the standard. It would take an act of congress to tell broadcasters to switch to MPEG-4. Then, think about the hassles. How many Stand alone ATSC tuners would have to be swapped out in the whole country? How many TVs with built in tuners would become useless? Dish can switch to MPEG-4 to save bandwidth because they control all of the boxes that receive their signals. Who controls all of the OTA tuners? There isn't one single company. The government gives them the specifications. Even more so, where is the bandwidth limitation for a broadcaster? They may try multicasting, which the jury is still out on, but they are given the whole 19.2Mbs to do it. Even if they take 5Mbs for some other channel, they are still giving more bandwidth than one of Dish's HD Lite channels!

If the satellite company wants to convert, they use a transcoder to do it. I think there will be limitations to that, as I haven't heard that "real time" MPEG-4 encoders are ready for use as of yet. But, who cares, the whole MPEG-4 thing is a sham anyway at the moment, as it is just MPEG-2 with MPEG-4 headers.

Okay I am still a little confused... Are you saying that the satellite companies get something different FROM the terrestial stations than what the terrestial stations will broadcast OTA? If my OTA tuner tells me that the local station is broadcasting in 720p, then how do i know if this is MPEG2 versus MPEG4???

 

[jsanders]

Okay I am still a little confused... Are you saying that the satellite companies get something different FROM the terrestial stations than what the terrestial stations will broadcast OTA? If my OTA tuner tells me that the local station is broadcasting in 720p, then how do i know if this is MPEG2 versus MPEG4???

Right now, your tuner probably only decodes MPEG2, so that is how you know! There are a couple of ways the satellite company can do MPEG-4. They can get the uncompressed signal and encode MPEG-4, or they can take the MPEG-2 and transcode to MPEG-4. Obviously, the first scenario is better.

Here is a scenario that might make sense to you..... DirecTV *already* transmits locals in MPEG-4. Doesn't your OTA receiver still work? If they switched it to MPEG-4 to work with DirecTV, your OTA receiver wouldn't work anymore. Yet it still does.