SD Content on 4:3 HDTV with 942 (or 811)?

[kstile]

My TV is a 4x3 HDTV. As such I understand that it's a bit of a rarity, with nearly all HD sets sold today being 16x9 widescreen. In the settings of the 942 I see that there are two apparently discrete settings for TV Type (1080i, 720p, and 480p) and the other is for Aspect Ratio (16x9, 4x3 #1, 4x3 #2).

My issue is with SD content, regardless of whether the signal comes out via the DVI or component outputs on the back of the 942. Regardless of whether I set the TV Type to 1080i or 720p, and then pick any Aspect Ratio (I tried all combinations), the 942 seemed to assume that my TV was 16x9.

The consequence of this is that with regular SD content my TV shows both letterboxing and windowboxing (black bars all around) - not acceptable b/c the picture is too small. I can play with the Format button on the 942 remote to stretch the picture to fill from left to right, but cannot fill the screen vertically.

There are two workarounds I have found, neither of which is really acceptable. The first is to change the TV Type to 480p. This allows for full screen of SD content, but then the HD content fills the screen also, and doesn't look good b/c it's only 480 lines instead of true HD.

The second workaround is to use the TV2 output to run a composite cable to a different input on my TV. This is the way I currently have it, but that means that when changing channels on the 942 from an SD to an HD one, I also have to change the input on my TV (and, often, change the Format). Not to mention that this makes it less convenient (impossible?) to fully use the multi-room function of the 942.

Can anyone confirm that the 942 will upconvert all SD content on TV1 to 1080i (or 720p) and therefore always be sending a 16x9 signal? Is there *any* way to bypass this and have the SD content sent over component (or DVI) in full 4x3 glory?

I'm assuming that the issue is with the 942 b/c I am able to watch full-screen (4x3) DVD content through the same component inputs on my TV. I understand, too, that every TV (mine is the Sony 36XBR800) is a little different, but it seems like they've left an entire class of TVs (4x3 HDTV) with only the option of using the composite (not even S-Video) in order to fill the entire screen with SD content.

FWIW, this behavior was identical on my 811; I had hoped that with the 942 the issue would have been resolved.

Thanks.

 

[jcvaughan]

I also have a 4X3 HD set (toshiba). I have the 942 and use the component outputs (the DVI didn't look any better) My settings are 1080i and 4X3 #2. I get full screen SD and letterboxed HD. When I zoom SD content on an HD channel it also fills the screen vertically and horizontally. I know this might not help but thought you'd like to know that it should work.

 

[kstile]

Thanks for the reply. I guess that means that it's my TV and not the 942. I'll keep on experimenting with the settings and see if anything else works out. With my TV, at least, it appears as if the 942 settings of "4x3 #1" and "4x3 #2" are disregarded when the TV Type is set to 1080i (or 720p). I found this on Sony's site which, possibly, addresses the issue:

The aspect ratio of a High Definition picture displayed on the television is determined by the signal being received. It can only be changed by the television if the signal being received is 480p or 480i. Otherwise, it cannot be changed by the television.

So perhaps the 942 is sending oout a 16x9 signal but your Toshiba TV is actually able to do something about it and show it in 4x3 (just a zoom, really). When you say you "zoom SD content" are you talking about doing so with your TV or with the Format button on the 942 remote?

thanks.

 

[jcvaughan]

My toshiba displays 16:9 content from the 942 in letterbox. when one of the HD channels broadcasts a non-HD program I zoom it to full screen via the 942 remote's format button. Good luck.

 

[skierrob]

4x3 problems

I have the same issue. What you need (and what the 942 doesn't have) is called "native mode" or "pass-through mode".

Here's the issue. Your TV sees the 1080i or 720p signal being sent by the 942 and it automatically assumes it's 16x9 since that's what all 1080i and 720p programs are. So the TV switches to 16x9 letterbox mode.

Now, when the TV sees a 480i or 480p signal, it switches to 4x3 because most 480i and 480p is 4x3. Great. The problem, though, is with the 942.

When you set up the 942, you are asked if you want to always output in 1080i, 720p or 480p -- regardless of the signal coming in from a particular channel. The missing piece is a mode that would outpout 1080i input as 1080i, 720p input as 720p and 480p or 480i input as 480p or 480i. IE... "native" mode. Output the same quality that is being input.

This is *THE* reason why I moved to Charter Communications and got the Explorer 8300HD DVR box. Just because they have that magical "native" or "pass-through" mode that outputs the same signal that is being input. I think it's terrible that Dish didn't make this mode available on the 942 because it causes exactly what you described when you try to view SD programming.

Robert

 

[Cyclone]

While watching an SD channel, try hitting the * key and see if you can get it to go to a aspect that you like. Just a thought.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I have an 811 and a 16:9 HD set. I run both a DVI-D to HDMI connection and s-video between them. I watch all HD via the DVI-HDMI connection and all SD through s-video. Not because of any aspect issues, but because the quality of the SD images are better through s-video.

I would love it if I didn't need to do this, as it is a bit (albeit a tiny bit) of a pain to use the remote to switch inputs. But it is worth it in terms of the noticably better SD images.

I do not know if the same situation is true for the 942. However it is a certainty that the s-video will produce better SD quality than the composite connection that you said you were using now.

 

[kstile]

SKIERROB - Ding ding ding! You win the prize for finally making it absolutely clear where the issue is. I tried to articulate this to the Dish CSR, but he kept insisting that it was my TV. I don't think I'll take the leap you did and switch from Dish, but it's good to know that I wasn't going crazy. Put another way, the 942 always and automatically upconverts everything going out over the component (and DVI) connection to 1080i (or 720p), regardless of the incoming signal. They should have this in their manual.

CYCLONE - unfortunately all this does is zoom the picture horizontally on my TV - I still end up with letterboxing of the SD picture.

TOM - I see what you're saying and have ended up there, sort of. Unlike the 811, the 942, unfortunately, does not have an S-Video output. The only way out is via composite, component, and HDMI. So I have the component (actually looked better on my TV than the DVI) going to Video 6 on my TV and the Composite (RCA) going to Video 1. Thank goodness for the Harmony Remote I have which allows me to switch inputs and the other settings all with just one press of a button.

Thanks all for clearing this up. Guess I'll just have to get a new 16x9 HDTV to make the problem go away... ;-)

 

[Tom Bombadil]

The 942 does not have s-video output? That surprises me - a lot! Yet it has composite and RF outputs???

I hadn't looked at one closely enough to notice this. I would have been a very unhappy camper if I had popped for one, which I almost did three months ago, and had found this out when I went to hook everything up.

I would love to have an 811 and 942 side by side to compare SD image quality into a 16:9 HD set. If the 942 component or DVI outputs were the equal of the 811's s-video, then there's no problem. But on the 811, the s-video is definitely better on SD than either component or DVI. For the sake of 942 owners, I hope the SD is better off of component/DVI than what I see from my 811.

 

[splat10]

SKIERROB - Ding ding ding! You win the prize for finally making it absolutely clear where the issue is. I tried to articulate this to the Dish CSR, but he kept insisting that it was my TV. I don't think I'll take the leap you did and switch from Dish, but it's good to know that I wasn't going crazy. Put another way, the 942 always and automatically upconverts everything going out over the component (and DVI) connection to 1080i (or 720p), regardless of the incoming signal. They should have this in their manual.

My panasonic 4:3 does the same thing. I just have to go into the setup every time i turn on the tv and switch it back to 4:3 manually. Then everythings cool. It sucks but it's the only way. As others stated that TV is sensing the 1080 signal and setting itself to 16:9. I've set up a macro to do it

Steve

 

[Sarang]

SKIERROB - Ding ding ding! You win the prize for finally making it absolutely clear where the issue is. I tried to articulate this to the Dish CSR, but he kept insisting that it was my TV. I don't think I'll take the leap you did and switch from Dish, but it's good to know that I wasn't going crazy. Put another way, the 942 always and automatically upconverts everything going out over the component (and DVI) connection to 1080i (or 720p), regardless of the incoming signal. They should have this in their manual.

CYCLONE - unfortunately all this does is zoom the picture horizontally on my TV - I still end up with letterboxing of the SD picture.

TOM - I see what you're saying and have ended up there, sort of. Unlike the 811, the 942, unfortunately, does not have an S-Video output. The only way out is via composite, component, and HDMI. So I have the component (actually looked better on my TV than the DVI) going to Video 6 on my TV and the Composite (RCA) going to Video 1. Thank goodness for the Harmony Remote I have which allows me to switch inputs and the other settings all with just one press of a button.

Thanks all for clearing this up. Guess I'll just have to get a new 16x9 HDTV to make the problem go away... ;-)

Yeeeesssss embrace WS.

Seriously this whole passthrough bit pisses me off because there ARE people out there that have TV's that can natively display 720p and 1080i who this is inconvencing. Granted my TV is suppose to upscale unfortunately, I have a Sony CRT XBR WS so I guess technically I could leave it on 1080i and it wouldn't make much difference for HD.
Tom thanks for your info there since I'm probably going to be buying an 811 soon as a temporary measure when I get Dish since the 962 and the 411 will be coming out soon enough for the MPEG4. Looks like I'll have to look forward to switching back and forth with S-Video and DVI like you.

 

[grb]

Yeeeesssss embrace WS.

I'm probably going to be buying an 811 soon as a temporary measure when I get Dish

You shouldn't have to. All the Dish promotions over the past several months offer a free 811 and up to 2 SD DVR's...

 

[Sarang]

I choose to own grb.

 

[M Sparks]

This isn't any help, but I wouldn't consider a 4:3 HD CRT a "rarity". It's pretty common in the $500-$1000 range. They make widescreen CRTs for under $1000, but they are only 30" (which is considerably smaller than a 27" when in 4:3 mode.) I was seriously considering a 32" Sony 4:3 HD CRT until I found a good deal on an LCD.

BTW, I would consider this a problem with the 942 AND the TV. Native Pass Through would be great, but the TV should be more flexible as well.

I suppose all TVs have their own little quirks, yours is just more serious than others. Mine "overzooms" when set to "zoom" on broadcast letterbox SD programming, chopping off the top and bottom. Now that I have the 942, I tried the "partial zoom" mode, but it seems to distort the picture a bit.