SatelliteGuys 921 Review

[rudolpht]

Sean and Tim-

Consider where you are. NYC is the number one market and staffed by some the best engineers in the business.

Don,

As an old DirecTV subscriber have you had a receiver with the Advanced Programming Guide out for over two years now. It totally circumvents the PSIP issue by streaming guide data for both analog and digitial stations. It has nothing to do with PSIP which is still broken enough in the Boston market to probably cause the 921 bug to show up.

The beauty of the DirecTV system is that it works (though need to be sat connected to download PG like any sat PG.

If DirecTV could nail this two years ago, and Voom can do it now, I'm thinking Dish could probably do it now.

Tim

 

[sjhart]

Scott,
What is your assessment of the amount of noise generated by the 921 (i.e. fan, hard drive, etc.). I read Mark's review, but wanted to get your opinion. Thank you.

 

[rad]

[quote="rudolphtIf DirecTV could nail this two years ago, and Voom can do it now, I'm thinking Dish could probably do it now.

Tim[/quote]

It's been over two years, closer to three. The Mits D* STB that I had back in 2/01 had the APG in it and it worked just fine.

 

[TheForce]

Tim- Can you explain how this new advanced PG works in a bit more detail?

What concerns me is how it gets info from a local station that is already having problems with the publication of the information to begin with.
eg. Say I want to time shift the 5PM local news so I can watch it later that evening. Are you saying that even though the local station is not publicizing this schedule that DirecTV somehow konws it and can offer it in their Adv. PG?

I'm sure you know that my most advanced DirecTV is a DTC-100, an antique by some standards. So, therefore, I have no direct experience with the new system you mentioned.

I understand that you may be referring to only network schedules so if that is true than I guess I can concede that if one restricts their use of a time shift to network programming only, it will work because they can obtain those schedules from the network except where pre-empted by local programming. Unfortunately, I would not value such a "yes but" exception to this. The way to make it work is to have the system standardized and regulated so each station will be required to state their schedule with accuracy. Until then I believe it will be as I said, like an amateur radio experiment. You can't rely on that. And neither can the 921.

 

[markdl]

It baffles me as to WHY Dish made it a requirment to have TWO line feeds for the 921 to work. Sure, we would have more functionality and options with the 2 tuner setup. But for people who just want to have the receiver function like a 501 and record in HD, this is a real bummer. I like many others here will not be able to get the second line installed, so for now (until switch 44) the 921 is off the table for me. How hard could it be to make the unit function with just one line?

Clearly E* released these products too soon to try to get the jump on the competition. The 811 and 921 are obviously beta units right now. We are "early adopters" so we should probably expect some problems. I just wish the service was better.
Bubba04

The 921 is a very complex machine that, according to the programmers, has more than 1000 states that it can be in that require both tuners. That's a hell of a lot of programming to protect against only one tuner being installed. So how hard could it be? Pretty nearly impossible.

And just a couple of weeks ago, everyone was screaming that the 921 should just get released and the bugs will get fixed later. Now you're screaming that the 921s should never have been released because of the bugs...you can't have it both ways folks.

 

[rad]

Tim- Can you explain how this new advanced PG works in a bit more detail?

Don, you might want to check this out for some information:

http://www.directv.com/images/PR/factsheets/13551CRP_APG_R08.pdf

It's been a couple of years since I had it but if I remember correctly, you enteded you zip code into the receiver and it download all the programming information for your over the air channels along with the D* schedule. I don't see how it's that much different then what the local cable operators can do with their program guide. My local Comcast system know that the HD PBS channel has different programming then the SD PBS channel and reflects it in the guide.

 

[Sean Mota]

Don,

I do not know all the details how VOOM (or DirecTv) is doing it but the OTA local PG is downloaded every night from the Satellite along with the other channels. VOOM is doing for only Digital Stations. This will include all digital stations mapped to your local region. In my case, ABC, CBS, WPIX (WB), NBC, FOX (and its substation UPN), WNET (and its substations), WLIW (and its substations), WXTV (Spanish TV), WNJN(and its substations), WLNY (and its substations), WFTY, & WFUT.

if you go to this link you will see the PG that comes through the VOOM box for my region and this does not apply only to me but to anyone that it is currently a VOOM subscriber.

http://tvlistings4.zap2it.com/cabdbs/grid.asp?partner_id=cabdbs

 

[douweb]

Tim- Can you explain how this new advanced PG works in a bit more detail?

What concerns me is how it gets info from a local station that is already having problems with the publication of the information to begin with.
eg. Say I want to time shift the 5PM local news so I can watch it later that evening. Are you saying that even though the local station is not publicizing this schedule that DirecTV somehow konws it and can offer it in their Adv. PG?

I'm sure you know that my most advanced DirecTV is a DTC-100, an antique by some standards. So, therefore, I have no direct experience with the new system you mentioned.

I understand that you may be referring to only network schedules so if that is true than I guess I can concede that if one restricts their use of a time shift to network programming only, it will work because they can obtain those schedules from the network except where pre-empted by local programming. Unfortunately, I would not value such a "yes but" exception to this. The way to make it work is to have the system standardized and regulated so each station will be required to state their schedule with accuracy. Until then I believe it will be as I said, like an amateur radio experiment. You can't rely on that. And neither can the 921.

Don, also my TIVO is giving me the local channels line-up (even with pretty local stuff as "paid programming" advertisements) ... dont know where they pull the info from though but it seems very accurate

Douwe

 

[drcos]

... dont know where they pull the info from...

AFAIK, Tivo gets its PG information from Tribune Media, as I had emailed about lineup changes back when I used it for more than an equipment spacer, and they told me that they had to wait for the corrected lineups from Tribune.

 

[Larry]

Although it has to dial out to do it, my old Panasonic Showstopper manages to get the local channel information and Dish programming. I guess it does it the same way the TIVO does it. All I know is that it's quite accurate.

Since I know little about D*, but am under the impression that their equipment needs a phone line connected, perhaps the DirectTIVO dials out for the local listings as well.

 

[bubba04]

The 921 is a very complex machine that, according to the programmers, has more than 1000 states that it can be in that require both tuners. That's a hell of a lot of programming to protect against only one tuner being installed. So how hard could it be? Pretty nearly impossible.

And just a couple of weeks ago, everyone was screaming that the 921 should just get released and the bugs will get fixed later. Now you're screaming that the 921s should never have been released because of the bugs...you can't have it both ways folks.

Being a "newbie" to the DBS scene, I guess I need to research a lot on the new products coming out to us. But as a consumer who just wants an HD receiver with a PVR, the 2 line deal sounds strange to me. Is it possible to make a one line HD box with a PVR? Could a PVR be simply added to the 811? That's really all I need and want. Doesn't sound too complicated to me. But then I know that I am not be up all this. So the more info I could get from the gurus would be appreciated. A site like this is invaluable!
Bubba04

 

[A_Noland]

I think at some point in the future the dishpro stuff will allow a dual tuner receiver to use a single feed from the lnb. They are going to have a reverse switch or something. But as usual, we'll have to wait a month or 10 for them to release it. Someone else here might have better info.

 

[ScottChez]

So did anyone look inside?

Are there rails for a 2nd drive or DVD burner?

Is it a IDE drive that dish could maybe sell us?

 

[rudolpht]

Tim- Can you explain how this new advanced PG works in a bit more detail?

What concerns me is how it gets info from a local station that is already having problems with the publication of the information to begin with.
eg. Say I want to time shift the 5PM local news so I can watch it later that evening. Are you saying that even though the local station is not publicizing this schedule that DirecTV somehow konws it and can offer it in their Adv. PG?

I'm sure you know that my most advanced DirecTV is a DTC-100, an antique by some standards. So, therefore, I have no direct experience with the new system you mentioned.

I understand that you may be referring to only network schedules so if that is true than I guess I can concede that if one restricts their use of a time shift to network programming only, it will work because they can obtain those schedules from the network except where pre-empted by local programming. Unfortunately, I would not value such a "yes but" exception to this. The way to make it work is to have the system standardized and regulated so each station will be required to state their schedule with accuracy. Until then I believe it will be as I said, like an amateur radio experiment. You can't rely on that. And neither can the 921.

Don,

I don't know the how, but it does publish all channels including non-network locals, assumably like zap2it, titan, or the other services do.

I have noticed a few bad hits with some -4 type sbchannel guide info on digitals, but I would say it is about 98% correct, which is a pretty good track record (and would include the local non-net evening news, etc., for example).

It is what I miss most from DirecTV since my Sat520HD zenith box was retired (and the Tosh 3000 a generation before it).

I would definitely think this a major differentiator between HD DirecTivo & the 921. If the HD DirecTivo had a Firewire out there would be no contest (for my specific market segment - me - and I assume some enthusiasts that spend too much on programming and multiple providers ).


Happy New Year,
Tim
Tim

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I was just watching VH1 Classics (Second Tuner was not in use) and all of a sudden the 921 rebooted itself.

Wierd.

 

[TheForce]

Thanks Tim. I'm not sure I understand all the different guide sources but would I be correct in your opinion that PSIP is to be the proposed standard for all Local Digital stations to adopt? I was under the impression that this was the recommendation by the ATSC and the guidelines by the NAB. (Again where the heck is the FCC?)
All these other sources are fine but my whole issue is there is no standard, none. Therefore, the guide accuracy on a 921 will vary as the source varies.
Would you agree to that?

Meanwhile- as it affects me, I'm not at all worried about it as my main concern is to be able to time shift mostly the movie channels. I still don't watch much local TV so it doesn't affect me hardly at all. My interest is more in line of academics than what I need for home entertainment. I'd guess I watch about 2% local TV and that would be local airings of our Jaguars playing when not blacked out. Probably 5% of viewing time is Network prime time shows when in season and the balance of my HT time is rental DVD's and Prem MOvie channels.
Yes, I have multiple providers but only for HBOHD and Showtime HD. So it isn't like I'm spending excess amounts on redundant programming. If the 921 weren't imminent I probably would drop my HBO and Showtime HD packages on Dish.

 

[BarryO]

While I am thinking about it wouldn't it be nice if the 921 had a built in Antenna Rotor control built into it. Think about it, unless you live in the perfect location all your HD Channels are not are not going to be in the same place coming from the same antenna, if the 921 had a rotor control it could automaticly move your antenna to the proper spot for receiving each channel. I can imagine a lot of folks are going to be writing saying that their 921 did not record their favorite HD show because their off air antenna was pointing in the wrong direction.

I honestly don't think this feature would prove very useful. The reason is that consumer-grade rotators; i.e., the ubiquitous Channel Master / Radio Shack units, run "open loop". In other words, when the controller needs to move the rotator to a new position, it just turns on the voltage for a certain time period, for as long as the controller thinks it will take the rotator to move from its current position (or what it thinks the rotator's current position is), to its new position. Over time, the rotator and controller lose sync. In other words, the system depends on manual adjustments from a person every now and then, especially in the case of critical position adjustments as in the case you cite. I don't think this can be made as automatic as you describe.

Heavy-duty rotators used by HAM radio operators include position sensors and feedback mechanisms to keep the controller and rotator sync'd, but these are cost-prohibitive for consumer TV use, especially considering the heavier towers these require.

 

[ericha]

Regarding "open loop" antenna rotators--
One workaround for this is to periodically "re-calibrate" the rotor, by having it turn clockwise (or counter clockwise) for long enough that it hits the stop--then you have a known position. I've seen several HP inkjet printers do exactly this, if you turn the power off in the middle of printing & then turn it back on. The printer makes a bit of a racket, but it works great, and makes the printer cheaper than if it had an absolute position encoder.

 

[rudolpht]

I was under the impression that this was the recommendation by the ATSC and the guidelines by the NAB. (Again where the heck is the FCC?)
All these other sources are fine but my whole issue is there is no standard, none. Therefore, the guide accuracy on a 921 will vary as the source varies.
Would you agree to that?

Don,

That is the standard for OTA receivers for Digital channels (SD, SD multiplexed, and HD), but it is weak as standards go, i.e., not very standard. I think it will take an HD in every carage with OTA tuners built in before there is enough pressure for bottoms up complaints/enforcement. That said that day will likely never arrive as most homes will use cable w/ proprietary guides, etc.

The APG concept by DirecTV certainly advanced the state of the art for STB EPGs. Of course it takes a sat shot to use (so folks using DirecTV STBs for OTA only are SOL. Dish of course you need the sat turned on to even view OTA. The fact that it's been done by two DBS co's and multiple PVR vendors (Tivo, Replay via phone or network).

I don't think the multiplicty of source will inhibit adoption. The best and very custom guide is xmltv. http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmltv . We are moving into the age of information services premissed on network-based services. With xmltv a comp geek can look at multiple standard xml sources, delimit the carriers & channels of interest, and combine into a single authoritatize yet very customizable guide. I used to beat up the HDTVmagazine guys for late delivery, a thing of the past, but I can "do up" a custom guide based on say HD OTA & Sho-HD & HBO-HD to figure on archiving a month out. Pain in the neck to setup, then elegant to run through something like XLobby. That said and back to your initial question, there are sources (free) that produce the high confidence data. This should be an easy win, which is why I find the Mar timeframe very believable for a better guide from Dish.

Best regards & all the best in the New Year,
Tim

 

[bytre]

>> I was just watching VH1 Classics (Second Tuner was not in use) and all of a sudden the 921 rebooted itself.

Hmm. My Dishplayer used to pinkscreen on VH1 classics a couple years back.