safe antenna installation? how far from power lines?

[facesnorth]

I hadn't even considered this would be an issue, to be honest, but there was a big warning paper included in the box of my new Winegard 7694 antenna not to put it near power lines. In fact it says it should be double the distance of the antenna plus the distance of the mast away from the lines. That's about 15 feet all together. And there's a picture of a house with the power lines, and they show the installation should be on the opposite side of the house. I can understand the danger but it seems extreme to me. And unfortunately puts me in a tough bind now to find an ideal location to mount.

The main lines are across the street from my house, but where the lines come in and bind to my house is just a few feet below where I wanted to mount my mast against the house. It's the highest point, and the one away from trees. The opposite side of the house, equally high, would face a mess of trees. I don't want to put a tripod on the roof or deal with anything in the middle of the roof if possible. I bought some wall brackets and was going to mount right into the T-111 at the edge of the house, right below the roof top. Unfortunately the bottom of the mast will be about 3 feet up and to the left of where the lines come in. Is this a huge problem? What could happen other than accidentally touching them while I'm trying to install it? It's relatively light so I think I can handle that. Is there an issue with electricity potentially jumping from the lines to the antenna or vice versa? I don't understand it please help me. Thanks.

 

[Pepper]

120 volt insulated lines coming from the pole transformer to your hoiuse isn't what to be worried about.

The high-voltage bare wires hanging between the poles, stay plenty far away from those.

 

[boba]

Be sure your homeowners ins. is paid. It sounds like your danger is wind blowing the antenna over where it could short the power lines or an element breaking off and doing the same. Winegard is CYA with the warning.

 

[truckracer]

The insulated drop line to your house is not really a danger (It is sort of). Ideally you want to stay away from any electrical source of high or line level voltage.
I would say make sure you stay away from the High voltage distribution lines that are uninsulated that feed the transormers in your neighborhood. these are usually 7200V AC.
The drop line to your home is usually well insulated triplex aluminum with a tough skin.
120/240 v AC.

Most antenna manufacturers used to claim 1 1/2 times their length away.

 

[facesnorth]

OK so basically I'm fine. I can put it where I intended.

Also, I was going to tie a ground wire around the mast and run it along with the DB6 coax. Now the main service ground is directly below where the antenna is going to be, but the coax is going to come down past it and wrap around the other side of the house before going inside (it will connect to a ground block at that point and then into its own seperate ground). My question is, should I run the copper ground from the mast straight down into the service ground, or wrap it around the house with the coax and into the ground pole that the grounding block runs to? (my dtv satellite dual coax wires also connect to this block. i got a quad block so they could share).

 

[facesnorth]

Also, I was going to tie a ground wire around the mast and run it along with the DB6 coax. Now the main service ground is directly below where the antenna is going to be, but the coax is going to come down past it and wrap around the other side of the house before going inside (it will connect to a ground block at that point and then into its own seperate ground). My question is, should I run the copper ground from the mast straight down into the service ground, or wrap it around the house with the coax and into the ground pole that the grounding block runs to? (my dtv satellite dual coax wires also connect to this block. i got a quad block so they could share).

bump?

 

[facesnorth]

Also, I was going to tie a ground wire around the mast and run it along with the DB6 coax. Now the main service ground is directly below where the antenna is going to be, but the coax is going to come down past it and wrap around the other side of the house before going inside (it will connect to a ground block at that point and then into its own seperate ground). My question is, should I run the copper ground from the mast straight down into the service ground, or wrap it around the house with the coax and into the ground pole that the grounding block runs to? (my dtv satellite dual coax wires also connect to this block. i got a quad block so they could share).

Anyone?

 

[boba]

Your ground block should be run to the house wiring main ground not to an aux. ground rod unless that ground rod is bonded to the main ground.

 

[jayn_j]

Your ground block should be run to the house wiring main ground not to an aux. ground rod unless that ground rod is bonded to the main ground.

Boba is correct. Many people think ground is an absolute level, and it isn't, especially in areas where a large current source is saturating the ground. A friend who worked for the phone company once measured a 400V voltage differential between power ground and phone ground near a power substation.

That sort of stuff can kill a consumer who simultaneously touches both, i.e. holding a telephone chassis and grabbing the mixer blades.

 

[facesnorth]

Your ground block should be run to the house wiring main ground not to an aux. ground rod unless that ground rod is bonded to the main ground.

Wow I never realized that. I assumed that would introduce some kind of interference. It's amazing how much electricians and installers don't know or don't care. One electrician recently told me it's best to leave it off the main ground and use it's own because the power company might not like it.

So I am going to run a copper ground directly from the mast straight down to the main service ground. Then I am going to run another copper ground from the grounding block (right where the coax enters the house) all the way back around the other side of the house (I can just use plastic clips and nail them into the T-111 at the bottom of the house like they do for running coax?) and connect that to the main service ground as well?

Boba is correct. Many people think ground is an absolute level, and it isn't, especially in areas where a large current source is saturating the ground. A friend who worked for the phone company once measured a 400V voltage differential between power ground and phone ground near a power substation.

That sort of stuff can kill a consumer who simultaneously touches both, i.e. holding a telephone chassis and grabbing the mixer blades.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "absolute level" and the significance of a voltage differential. In this case would it have been better for the phone ground to run back and share the service ground?

So I should have one ground for everything that runs into the house, main power, telephone, cable, satellite, antenna, all electronics, etc, correct?

 

[jayn_j]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by "absolute level" and the significance of a voltage differential. In this case would it have been better for the phone ground to run back and share the service ground?

So I should have one ground for everything that runs into the house, main power, telephone, cable, satellite, antenna, all electronics, etc, correct?

By 'absolute level', I mean that most people think of ground as 0V, but they don't realize that every ground is only relative to the system it is referenced to.

It's generally a good idea to tie the grounds together inside a house, and you will find that most codes require it. However, even a big chunk of copper wire has some resistance, and you will find that there is a voltage difference and current flow between two ground rods in the smae house. It is generally pretty small, but it can be large in the case like being near the power substation. It can also make a big difference in rural systems where there are long wire runs without ground rods. In those cases, they often will isolate the phone and/or power and re-reference them to a local ground. In the end, this is a complicated topic.

Bottom line, all your grounds should be tied together with heavy ground wires. Do not use light gauge wire in long runs for a ground, as the resistance could cause a significant voltage drop.

 

[facesnorth]

Thanks. Some of the terminology and concepts are a little beyond my current level of comprehension, however it's something I'm very interested in learning about.

I've decided to put the antenna up on the opposite side of the house, away from the power lines, even though it will be facing trees, just to be safe.

Here is a photo of where I was planning to put the antenna originally. Notice it's only a few feet above where the power lines attach:

Same view but zoomed out. The main service is directly below where the power lines attach, and the power ground is right below that:

Now here is where I think I am going to put it instead. I am standing approximately in the location the antenna will be pointing towards. Notice the tall trees. Also the main service ground is all the way on the opposite side of the house (directly under my original mounting location). The red circle is where the coax will enter the house & where I have my quad grounding block which will also have 2 coax's from my direcTV antenna & eventually one coax from an FM antenna.

I bought 100' of 10awg copper ground cable (green). I'm going to tie this to my mast (I believe to one of the screws on the wall mount?).

I got that idea from this picture:

Although I'll be using these wall mounts:

So from there I'm going to use plastic clips to mount the copper ground along my red trim under the roof, and wrap all the way around the house & tie into my main service ground. Then I will also bring the ground from my quad grounding block, and wrap that around the house into the main service ground as well.

Can I bring the grounding cable from the mast down towards the grounding block and run the 2 cables together to make mounting them to the T-111 easier? Or can I even just tie the one from the mast around the one from the grounding block & send a single copper wire over the main service ground?

Also can the green wire be painted to match the house? (note the house is still in the process of being painted that's why it looks sloppy)

Thanks a lot for your help.

 

[jayn_j]

You should be able to tie the two grounds together at the grounding block with no problem. I would not paint the wire. If it is insulated, it won't adhere. If it isn't insulated, it could interfere with the strands ability to short to each other and could increase resistance.

I see two alternate mounting locations for the antenna that would shorten the ground wire distance and also potentially fix the tree problem. The first and obvious one is the chimney. The second one is into the corner of the crook to the right of the porch in the first picture, above the hanging flowerpot.

 

[facesnorth]

You should be able to tie the two grounds together at the grounding block with no problem. I would not paint the wire. If it is insulated, it won't adhere. If it isn't insulated, it could interfere with the strands ability to short to each other and could increase resistance.

I see two alternate mounting locations for the antenna that would shorten the ground wire distance and also potentially fix the tree problem. The first and obvious one is the chimney. The second one is into the corner of the crook to the right of the porch in the first picture, above the hanging flowerpot.

I've read chimney mounts should be done on a 10' mast is this correct? I'd consider either method, although I could use some suggestions on how I would mount it in your second suggestion, because I don't believe the ones I posted a snapshot of (which I have) would do it in that case, unless I mounted against the anterior wall in that corner, rather than against the smaller wall facing the side street (that the plant is hanging on). The cheaper the better. I did start to grow fond of the idea of having it in the back of the house to be out of sight (the antenna AND the ground wire/coax). Also, since I did purchase 100' of ground wire, I don't mind running it, unless it doesn't work as effectively if it's such a long run. If the trees are an issue that's another matter. Here's my tvfool POST transition followed by current, by the way.

POST transition:

Currently:

Thanks again for your help.

 

[jayn_j]

The tvfool graphs don't help me much because I'm not sure of the orientation of the house and I'm not sure which stations you are trying to get out of that big list.

Your chimney is not really different that mounting on a wall because it is a framed piece of structure. The guideline you are quoting is for masonry chimneys.

The mount you have is for a flat wall. They do make brackets for interior and exterior corners as well. Probably no problem just maunting on the flat wall, EXCEPT for two caveats.

First, you need to get these mounted to solid wood. Don't use molys or wall anchors and expect the presswood exterior wallboard to hold. You need to take a piece of 2x4 and mount it solidly to a pair of studs Then mount the bracket to the 2x4 with the same lag bolts.

The second caveat is that you should have some significant distance between the upper and lower bracket. A good rule of thumb would be to seperate the upper and lower brackets by 1/4 - 1/3 of the total length of the mast. For example, if you wanted to extend the mast 10-15' above the upper bracket, you should place the brackets 5 feet apart for a total of 15-20' of mast. You also need to consider the wind load and strength of the mast. If you extend much beyond 15', you probably would need add guy wires.

 

[facesnorth]

The tvfool graphs don't help me much because I'm not sure of the orientation of the house and I'm not sure which stations you are trying to get out of that big list.

Your chimney is not really different that mounting on a wall because it is a framed piece of structure. The guideline you are quoting is for masonry chimneys.

The mount you have is for a flat wall. They do make brackets for interior and exterior corners as well. Probably no problem just maunting on the flat wall, EXCEPT for two caveats.

First, you need to get these mounted to solid wood. Don't use molys or wall anchors and expect the presswood exterior wallboard to hold. You need to take a piece of 2x4 and mount it solidly to a pair of studs Then mount the bracket to the 2x4 with the same lag bolts.

The second caveat is that you should have some significant distance between the upper and lower bracket. A good rule of thumb would be to seperate the upper and lower brackets by 1/4 - 1/3 of the total length of the mast. For example, if you wanted to extend the mast 10-15' above the upper bracket, you should place the brackets 5 feet apart for a total of 15-20' of mast. You also need to consider the wind load and strength of the mast. If you extend much beyond 15', you probably would need add guy wires.

The mast I bought at radio shack is only 5' because that's what the girl at solidsignal recommended when I bought the antenna. The only other one they sell is 10'. If I'm going to put 2x4's on the side of the house, it's starting to sound like the chimney would be best (the backside facing the roof) so that it's less obtrusive aesthetically. In this case what size mast would be best? We do have heavy winds, snow and ice.

I could also possibly buy this for $30 shipped, but I'd rather not have to spend anything else if possible:

How much of an issue do you think the trees will pose if I just put it on the backside of the house? And would the long ground wire run be OK? I don't expect to get much more than the channels that are only 25-30 miles away on the TVfool chart. If I wanted to shoot for the others, I probably would have went for a 91xg/4228 combo which I'm starting to regret not doing....

Thanks again for your help.

 

[rglore]

The antenna masts in stores are painted steel and will rust pretty bad. I recommend using 1" TW (thinwall) electrical conduit, it's galvanized, light, inexpensive and is 10' long so you can space your hangers further apart. Avoid pointing at nearby trees to avoid dropouts. I would just move your original location a few feet to the left for safety, the service power lines won't have any effect on the signal that far away.

 

[facesnorth]

The antenna masts in stores are painted steel and will rust pretty bad. I recommend using 1" TW (thinwall) electrical conduit, it's galvanized, light, inexpensive and is 10' long so you can space your hangers further apart. Avoid pointing at nearby trees to avoid dropouts. I would just move your original location a few feet to the left for safety, the service power lines won't have any effect on the signal that far away.

I suppose I can get that at an electrical supply? the thing about a few feet to the left is that the window doesn't leave much room for mounting. Also, if I'm going to have to mount 2x4's against the house, it will look ugly right on the front like that. If that's how I need to do it, and the trees are an issue, I'd lean towards mounting on the inside wall of the chimney, although it won't be as high.

 

[jayn_j]

I suppose I can get that at an electrical supply? the thing about a few feet to the left is that the window doesn't leave much room for mounting. Also, if I'm going to have to mount 2x4's against the house, it will look ugly right on the front like that. If that's how I need to do it, and the trees are an issue, I'd lean towards mounting on the inside wall of the chimney, although it won't be as high.

The height is not as big of an issue as finding a clear path through those trees. Once summer comes, you will find that the leaves suck up a lot of the signal.

It doesn't have to be a 2x4. You can use angle iron or the bracket you found. Personally, I find that any of it looks acceptable once it is painted the same color as the rest of the house.

I think at this point the chimney might be your best bet for strength if you can get past the trees. You might want to rethink the roof mounted tripod as well. It is stronger and you get more height.

 

[facesnorth]

You might want to rethink the roof mounted tripod as well. It is stronger and you get more height.

It just reminds me of a skylight. It seems no matter how much you caulk or tar they always leak. Do tripods have the same tendency?