Rebuilding an Prodelin/Andrew 1.8

[catamount]

I really don't understand your frustration? Those dishes are sold with either ku or C band equipment from the factory. You can buy the cband feed package for $176.00, which includes arms, feed , dual polarity cband feed, brackets, hardware, etc.

Catamount

 

[Dee_Ann]

I really don't understand your frustration? Those dishes are sold with either ku or C band equipment from the factory. You can buy the cband feed package for $176.00, which includes arms, feed , dual polarity cband feed, brackets, hardware, etc.

Catamount

Where from??? :excited:

I would do it in a minute if I could find that package of parts all in one.
Of course I imagine the shipping would be a beast because of the long arms.

 

[catamount]

Where from??? :excited:

I would do it in a minute if I could find that package of parts all in one.
Of course I imagine the shipping would be a beast because of the long arms.

FEED, DUAL POLARITY C-BAND - SATELLITE | SEG I would call them to make sure if the lnb's are included or not. If I remember right, one of their offices is in Midland.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Well thank you Mr Luken, you helped me make my decision. I really wasn’t sure what I wanted to do with this dish but you killing off the ku feed on AMC9 sealed the deal.

My 10’ dish is going to swing over to SES2 so I can continue to record Harvey Toons and Offbeat Cinema.

The 1.8 Prodelin is going to become a C-band dish and will be aimed at SES1 for MeTV. Which by the way, TROUNCES pretty much all other channels, everywhere.

So I bought a Titanium C1-PLL and the conical scalar from another SGUS member that sells on ebay. Thanks dude!

I wasn’t expecting it, it wasn’t mentioned in the listing but there was an adapter in the scalar box for mounting the LNBF to a KU type arm. That is a big deal for me! Thank you again !


So now I have this interesting new gadget.

First off, the shipping was plenty fast even in this awful weather. I could not have asked for more.

The boxes are really nicely done, you can tell it’s not the usual cheap, flimsy Chinese cardboard. Very nice presentation. Well done.

The parts were well packaged with spacers and bubble wrap. Again, well done.

The parts feel sturdy and of substance. Not your typical cheap, flimsy Chinese junk. I feel like I got what I paid for plus a little extra but that’s probably because I’ve become conditioned to cheap, flimsy Chinese cr*p..

All the screws look like they are quality, like this stuff far exceeds Chinese quality. How does that happen in 2014??


One problem I see with this device is that the cooling fins will become clogged with leaves and debris from the trees. I’m going to glue an aluminum screen over the fins to try and keep junk out.
OR, build some sort of sun shade to stand guard over the entire LNBF, like a piece of white plastic. It could keep the sun off which would help with the temperature, keep rain off and keep junk out of the fins.

Now here’s where I’m lost on this thing. This conical scalar thing. How do I position it on the LNBF? Please don’t tell me I have to experiment with placement! Please tell me there is a certain, uniform way to attach it!

As I see it, it can my mounted pretty much anywhere along the neck of this thing. Should I mount it all the way flush with the front edge? Or back some? I just do not know, I have never used one of these before.

I’m thinking that initially I should aim this thing at a satellite that has a really strong signal so I can get it generally setup as close to correct as possible and then move it to my target and tweak it from there.
That 6’ WSI Special gave me nothing but misery, I fought that thing for months and it never worked right, not once. It ended up wadded up into a rusty ball and tossed to the curb.
I had much less trouble with my 10’ dish WITH THE EXCEPTION of when I tried to get S2 Luken stuff via SES2. That was such a nightmare. I’m probably going to have to replace the LNBF on that dish with another C1-PLL.


That brings up another question. As far as I know they do not yet make a dual output PLL C-band LNBF. Does anyone else make one?

If not, can I use a 3x4 switch to feed two tuners without substantially degrading the signal?

On both SES1 and SES2, on each satellite, I don’t need to see both H & V. Like on SES1 I only care about the vertical stuff. And SES2 I only care about the horizontal stuff.

Can I put use a 3x4 on each dish to in essence, turn them into dual outputs? I want two tuners, my MicoHD and my home theater pc to both have full time access to both dishes at the same time so that either tuner can tune/record from either dish any time. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[FaT Air]

One problem I see with this device is that the cooling fins will become clogged with leaves and debris from the trees.

Instead of the 'normal' mounting where the heatsink would be at ~11 o'clock position. Place it 180 degrees 'out'. I.E: ~5 o'clock position. Polarity will be the same, not inverted like H is V, V is H.
ditto: As far as I know they, no one, makes a dual output PLL C-band LNBF

3x4 on each dish

If only single output LNBF's you're limited to one, or the other, polarity on each satellite. So in your situation it will be fine.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Instead of the 'normal' mounting where the heatsink would be at ~11 o'clock position. Place it 180 degrees 'out'. I.E: ~5 o'clock position. Polarity will be the same, not inverted like H is V, V is H.
ditto: As far as I know they, no one, makes a dual output PLL C-band LNBFIf only single output LNBF's you're limited to one, or the other, polarity on each satellite. So in your situation it will be fine.

Cool beans! Thank you.

And now for the inevitable dumb question(s)..

This thing needs a heat sink because it gets hot, yes?
If it’s getting hot enough to need a heat sink, wouldn’t that also mean that it’s drawing a lot of juice from the tuner?
Is this a potential problem with causing overheating at the tuner as it has to push more juice to this thing?

If the fins are pointed ~downward, would that impede their function? Wouldn’t they need to point upward since heat rises?

Or are the fins just a case of over-engineering and nothing to worry about?

As a fangirl of astronomy I know that they supercool the equivalents of an LNBF because it reduces noise. Are the fins there to try and lower the noise?
I’m just trying to get a grasp on what and why and the ramifications thereof.

As to the 3x4, this is good news since each dish will essentially function as a single polarity device. That I can use them to feed multiple tuners is a major plus for me..


With the weather as it is, yo-yo freezing, rain, freezing, rain, for the next week at least, there’s no chance I’ll be out there fiddling with dishes for awhile..

Thanks!

 

[FaT Air]

Don't know, first hand, about the engineering of the C1-PLL but think the heatsink is to help stabilize the LO. And yes it does consume a bit more 'power' but not that much, IMHO. Fins down shouldn't have a negative affect as any breeze will 'do the job' as will naturally occurring air movement because of heat flow to the air. Sure heat rises, but it will flow out the sides also.

 

[Titanium]

Thanks for a nice "opening the box" review and for noticing the extras! We try extra hard to make Titanium Satellite products perform better and build with higher quality components than competitors.

The current draw of the C1-PLL is actually less than competitors KU-band PLL LNBFs! We rate the C1-PLL at a conservative 145mA current draw, but find that it draws less than 125mA at 13Vdc. LO stability is not an issue with Phase Lock Loop LNBFs and the cooling fins would have little or no effect. There are no heat issues with the PLL LNBF. The cooling fins are simply to add additional surface to dissipate heat from the case. The cooler the mass, the better the performance! BTW, the cooling fins will be even more efficient if they are shaded, so putting the fins on the bottom is not an issue.

Placement of the scalar should closely match the Focal Distance of your dish. Lining the back of the scalar with the FD marks of the feedhorn will put it in the ball park. You will need to experiment to find the sweet LNBF placement fore/aft. Then add the scalar and slide it fore/aft. You then may find that the feedhorn may need additional adjustment and then the scalar to optimize the quality readings.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Thanks for a nice "opening the box" review and for noticing the extras! We try extra hard to make Titanium Satellite products perform better and build with higher quality components than competitors.

The current draw of the C1-PLL is actually less than competitors KU-band PLL LNBFs! We rate the C1-PLL at a conservative 145mA current draw, but find that it draws less than 125mA at 13Vdc. LO stability is not an issue with Phase Lock Loop LNBFs and the cooling fins would have little or no effect. There are no heat issues with the PLL LNBF. The cooling fins are simply to add additional surface to dissipate heat from the case. The cooler the mass, the better the performance! BTW, the cooling fins will be even more efficient if they are shaded, so putting the fins on the bottom is not an issue.

Placement of the scalar should closely match the Focal Distance of your dish. Lining the back of the scalar with the FD marks of the feedhorn will put it in the ball park. You will need to experiment to find the sweet LNBF placement fore/aft. Then add the scalar and slide it fore/aft. You then may find that the feedhorn may need additional adjustment and then the scalar to optimize the quality readings.

Thank you for the technically detailed response to my dumb questions! And the tips/advice! I’m not the brightest bulb on the string but I’m trying hard to learn this stuff..
I found out if I don’t ask the dumb questions I don’t learn. People may laugh at me but I’m trying and I am learning. Slowly.

I will take your advice and build a sun shade for the LNBF. I have some thick white plastic that I can cut and roll into a tube that will completely shade it.
Being that I’m building a mini-bud I’m going to have to use every technique available to get this thing going.

I’m hoping that because this is a high quality 1.8 Prodelin that was originally sold with options to receive C-band or KU for commercial use that I may have a better chance at making this work than the last time I tried a mini-bud which was an absolute failure.
So I have a very high quality dish and a high quality PLL LNBF, I think I can do it this time. At least this time the dish is low enough where I can reach everything without having to be on a ladder. That will make things much, much easier.

I wish I had ordered two of the C1-PLL’s the other day. Right now on my 10’ dish I have a dual output LNBF feeding two tuners and that’s really, really handy but I can do the same thing with the C1-PLL and a 3x4..
I need to aim the 10’ dish at 87 SES2 to get 4000H and maybe 4024H (I don’t know if it’s worth the bother yet) but I need to have at the very least the 4000H stuff available to both tuners at the same time.
I had hell with Luken stuff on SES2 a few years ago and pretty much gave up on it. I think that changing to a C1-PLL will be a game changer with that. I can park the dish there and tweak it to 4000H and not mess with it after.
I’m hoping that SES1 is strong and stable enough for the Prodelin 1.8 to give me solid, reliable performance for the Weigel feeds. I want it to also feed the two tuners via a 3x4 switch. Actually I may add a third tuner because my PC will not tune in Movies!
While I am very impressed with the MicroHD tuner, I’m thinking about trying out the Amiko Nano HD. It’s web capabilities intrigue me. Or maybe I’ll buy one of each. But to be honest, I will most likely go with the MicroHD because I know it is 100% reliable.

I hope we get a break in the weather soon so I can go get started on this project now that I have a direction I want to go with it. I’m anxious to get back to work on this..

Thanks again !

 

[Dee_Ann]

Well I just ordered a second C1-PLL to replace the dual output non-PLL that’s on my 10 dish right now. I’m guessing it should be in next week. I really wish I had thought ahead about just bought two at the same time the first time.

But it looks like we’re going to have rain next week so I probably won’t get to go outside much and do all this work.
I finally bought a NICE, proper ladder so I can get up to my 10’ LNBF without getting killed. My old ladder was a death trap.
But if the ground is mushy I can’t use a ladder.

One of my Direcway dishes has an LNBF on the blink, the plastic cover disintegrated and I suspect moisture and or bugs are in it.
I had that happen to one a few years ago. I hate that the Direcway dishes use their own weird, proprietary LNBF’s that can only be replaced with the identical same parts.
But when they work, they work really well.


I guess for now I can begin gathering all the parts into one spot. Now if I can just remember where I put those 3x4 switches....

 

[Dee_Ann]

Well here we go!

Getting closer!

It warmed up a little today and managed not to rain so I went ahead and dove into it.

I took the KU stuff off that I had been experimenting with and then tied some sticks to the arms to hold them in place (generally) so that I could attempt to fit the new C-band stuff into the arms.

I had to try several things and bend the end of the bottom arm several times, try spacers and washers and stuff till I finally got something that looked like it would work.
Then I was at a loss as to how to attach the side arms. I had to be sure they would clear the conical scalar as well. I figured I was stuck and was about to give up.
I got another cup of coffee and then went digging around in the redneck toolshed and I found some old aluminum tent stakes. I took a few, hammered them flat so that I could bend them then went to work fitting them in place.

I came up with something that I think will get me in the ballpark, so to speak.

It’s far from perfect and probably far from right and definitely redneck engineered but I really think (hope) that it will work.

I’m charging my meter up for tomorrow. I see that it’s not really lined up as well as it could be so tomorrow I need to take it all apart and make some more little bends in the bottom arm so that the LNBF is pointed at the right spot..


So this will be, so I hope, my SES1 dish from here on out. !sadroll

 

[Titanium]

A+++ for ingenuity! I love your projects! You see what is available and make it work. KUDOS!!!

Be sure to verify the feedhorn placement vertically and horizontally and compare the feedhorn angle to the assembly instructions that you located. If you know the offset angle of the dish, I would set the reflector at the correct elevation angle then verify that the feedhorn mechanical placement is not too high or low. It is very easy to place the feedhorn in the wrong position then adjust the reflector to optimize. Even though some signals will be reflecting into the feedhorn, much of the signal would not be converging and result in reduced performance.

Nice Project!

 

[Dee_Ann]

A+++ for ingenuity! I love your projects! You see what is available and make it work. KUDOS!!!

Thanks.. Honestly, I know it’s pretty shabby but it’s the best I can do.

Be sure to verify the feedhorn placement vertically and horizontally and compare the feedhorn angle to the assembly instructions that you located.

I had to read that over a few times for it to sink in but I think I understand what you are saying. I will check and recheck several times .

If you know the offset angle of the dish,

[STRIKE]I don’t. I’m not 100% sure what this is but I am guessing that that would be like the LNBF in relation to the reflector? Like if the LNBF was in a perfectly straight 90 degree line with the dish it would look like a capital letter L. Yes?
But of course that’s not how it’s supposed to be. If I draw a straight line through the center of the LNBF and a straight line along the facing edge of the reflector then measure that angle?[/STRIKE]

OMG!!! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked at the PDF documents for this dish but I just went and looked again after reading your post, I wanted to get their drawing of the dish and see if I could figure out the angle from that.
I was thinking maybe there is some online tool to figure angles in images, I don’t have a protractor and I did NOT do well in geometry.
But as I was looking at it I scrolled up and right there it tells me the angle, 22.3 degrees. AND, as a bonus, it tells me that there is a special rib on the back that you use to set the elevation with!
OMG! I could never figure out how to set the elevation! I was trying to set it by putting the inclinometer on the metal frame the dish is bolted to. And it didn’t jive at all with what I was getting. Like when I aimed it at 97w and got a signal, the elevation should have been about 54 degrees but the inclinometer was waaaaaaay different, because I stuck it to the metal frame and not the secret rib !!

WOO HOO!!! Mystery solved!

I would set the reflector at the correct elevation angle then verify that the feedhorn mechanical placement is not too high or low. It is very easy to place the feedhorn in the wrong position then adjust the reflector to optimize. Even though some signals will be reflecting into the feedhorn, much of the signal would not be converging and result in reduced performance.

Yes, I have a LOT of experience with putting stuff in the wrong place then spending weeks or months fighting with it!
I will try to take it a little slower and be a little more scientific with this project. I’m world famous for a short, fiery temper. I would like to skip the usual aggravation this time..

Nice Project!

Thank you again but it’s more of a case of complicated project. As they say, I’m just winging it on this one.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Oh yeah, another thing.

I’m thinking I should try it old school, using my antique Birdog meter..

I think I remember being told that it can identify a satellite by name, I’m hoping that SES 1 and 2 transmit these ID’s ??


I went to the Birdog site and downloaded a config for the two satellites and programmed the meter with it. So now it shows four options, an H and a V for each of the two satellites.

Once upon a time someone made recommendations to me, some tricks to change settings in the Birdog to make it easier to work with.
That was like 3+ years ago and I couldn’t tell you what that was to save my life.

Does anyone have any suggestions and or tips about using this OLD meter on these two satellites?

I have that cheap little meter that has a 2” TV screen built in but you can’t see it in the day time and frankly, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s a piece of cr*p.
I need to shop for a real meter this year. But anyway....


So do you guys think that having a go at it with the Birdog would be a good idea?

It’s like the really old, pre-USB model.

 

[Titanium]

Great that you found this information!

For more Birdog sensitivity, change the BER LIN setting to BER LOG. See: https://www.perfect-10.tv/marketing/birdog/techtips.aspx

It is extremely critical to place the feedhorn in the exact sweet spot where the collected signal is pinpointed and reflected from the entire surface of the dish. Failure to set the feedhorn in this exact position will attenuate the satellite signal as not all of the reflected signal will reach the feedhorn.

What I would do is first verify the horizontal (side to side) placement of the feedhorn. This will be determined by measuring from the center of the feedhorn to identical points on either side of the dish rim. The measurement must be equal on both sides. Once they are equal, tighten the side arm support legs.

Next, set the dish elevation angle exactly for your location (assuming that the post is perfectly plumb). Then verify that the feedhorn is physically placed at the correct elevation to optimally receive the satellite's signal. Watch your signal meter quality reading and CNR (or SNR) to peak while raising or lowering the feedhorn position. Once the signal quality is peaked, attach or tighten the center leg to support at that height.

Verify that the physical horizontal placement did not change and both measurements are still equal. Now optimize the signal quality by fine tuning the dish elevation and azimuth. Once the feedhorn and dish placement is optimized, adjust the LNBF skew, focal distance and scalar.

Good luck!

 

[Dee_Ann]

Great that you found this information!

For more Birdog sensitivity, change the BER LIN setting to BER LOG. See: https://www.perfect-10.tv/marketing/birdog/techtips.aspx

It is extremely critical to place the feedhorn in the exact sweet spot where the collected signal is pinpointed and reflected from the entire surface of the dish. Failure to set the feedhorn in this exact position will attenuate the satellite signal as not all of the reflected signal will reach the feedhorn.

What I would do is first verify the horizontal (side to side) placement of the feedhorn. This will be determined by measuring from the center of the feedhorn to identical points on either side of the dish rim. The measurement must be equal on both sides. Once they are equal, tighten the side arm support legs.

Next, set the dish elevation angle exactly for your location (assuming that the post is perfectly plumb). Then verify that the feedhorn is physically placed at the correct elevation to optimally receive the satellite's signal. Watch your signal meter quality reading and CNR (or SNR) to peak while raising or lowering the feedhorn position. Once the signal quality is peaked, attach or tighten the center leg to support at that height.

Verify that the physical horizontal placement did not change and both measurements are still equal. Now optimize the signal quality by fine tuning the dish elevation and azimuth. Once the feedhorn and dish placement is optimized, adjust the LNBF skew, focal distance and scalar.

Good luck!

WOW! Excellent, clear directions! Thank you!

I’ll have a go at it later today. I keep weird hours so it’s nite-nite time for me, if I want to wake up before the Crack O’Noon..
I’m excited now about this now after I’ve had such good fortune with everything falling into place and getting such wonderful advice.
And have this killer LNBF is sure gonna help too!

Thanks and goodnight!!

 

[Dee_Ann]

I found this on the General Dynamics (Prodelin) website.

I think it may be very, very useful to my efforts..


(I just wish it was ALL in metric. I hate fractions. I’m not very good with them. Metric is sooooo much easier. Oh well.....)

 

[catamount]

I found this on the General Dynamics (Prodelin) website.

I think it may be very, very useful to my efforts..


(I just wish it was ALL in metric. I hate fractions. I’m not very good with them. Metric is sooooo much easier. Oh well.....)

That's the chart I posted in Post#15. Just multiply the inches by 2.54 and you can work with centimetres.

 

[Dee_Ann]

That's the chart I posted in Post#15. Just multiply the inches by 2.54 and you can work with centimetres.

By George you certainly did post that previously! I missed it that time. I must have skimmed past it between my first cup of coffee and finding my glasses.
Or maybe I was looking at it on my iPad outside, in the sun. Sigh.. I feel stupid with an extra serving of stupid.


Converting inches to metric? Nope. I can’t deal with the fractions. In class when they were trying to teach me how to convert a fraction to a decimal number all I could think was of was sticking a pencil down my throat so I could go to the nurse to get out of class.

Actually that’s how I see pretty much all math.. I hate math.
Math is the devil’s handiwork.

ANYWAY........


Ok, now here’s some another spate of dumb questions.

I suppose I should go with the easier one first.

I have this inclinometer my dad gave me. He bought it at Harbor Freight. I don’t really want to ask him this question because he’ll [STRIKE]think[/STRIKE] KNOW that I’m an idiot.

Apparently it has two edges you can use to work from. One has a magnet and one has a valley. When you put it on the desk with the magnet down, ZERO is up and down or, at the 12 O’clock and 6 O’clock positions and 90 is the 3 and 6 O’clock positions.
And naturally when you put it on the desk with the valley side of it to the desk, everything is moved by 90 degrees.

What I do not understand/comprehend is what edge do I use against the dish when I’m setting the inclination? Depending on which edge I use I obviously get different readings.

The dish has a special rib on it that you are supposed to use to set the inclination from but they tell you nothing more than that, that the rib is there. (bottom center rib) In a second picture I messed with the contrast and brightness so that it’s easier to see this special rib.

Obviously the manual is for trained professionals that do this all day, every day. Not casual idiots like me that stumble into a good deal.

If I put the valley against the rib it’s really easy to hold the gauge against the rib. If that’s the proper way I’ll probably drill holes in some of the other ribs so I can stretch a bungee cord across to hold the gauge in place while I adjust the dish.
If not, I don’t know then. Maybe I can glue some metal to the alignment rib so that the gauge will stick to it.

I’ve looked on youtube and google on how to use one but all I find is like chiropractor videos wtf. I guess it’s assumed everyone knows how to use one of these.

Is ZERO always up? Or is ZERO the horizons? I honestly don’t know this and it has frustrated me from the very first time I ever tried to use one of these.



Now here is the harder, more complicated question. This is another problem that has long given me a great deal of grief.

The marks on the LNBF. They are for setting the “focal depth”, yes? aka f/d ??

In the documents for this dish I see that they say the dish has an f/d of .6
Um, ok. That’s all well and good but I do not understand how that translates to the markings on the LNBF.
They are just numbers from 32, going by two up to 44.

Everything I’ve found about the subject involves complicated math and measurements and stuff. But I have the manual saying that I don’t have to do any measurements or math, that it’s a known .6
As to the LNBF, I’ve found numerous discussions about this and the general consensus is that “they are all different and it depends on the manufacturer.” Well that’s helpful.. :cry:

If the f/d is .6, what should I set the scalar to on this? I can not figure out how the .6 figure given would apply to this LNBF that’s just marked 32-44.

If I could get that set early on it might save me a great deal of grief.

I’m sure I have some more dumb questions but I need more coffee.

When I tried to setup that WSI “Special” 6’ dish a few years ago it was a nightmare and an absolute, dismal failure. I never got it to work right and it ended up in the trash.
When I set up my 10’ dish I still didn’t know what I was doing but the dish is so big that it was very forgiving of my ineptitude and I bungled my way through it and I have it working, somewhat.
It’s far from proper but once I hit MeTV I left it there.

But this little dish will not be forgiving at all, not by any measure. I’m going to have a very difficult time with this one.
At least I have one thing working in my favor, they sold this dish as a C or a KU so it is 100% confirmed that it is C-band capable.

Thanks..

 

[FaT Air]

34 -44 marks. Correlate to the F/D with a flat scalar and a prime focus BUD. [F/D = .34 to .44]
For use on a offset [.6 F/D] place the scalar on the throat so the throat is flush with the first 'lip' on the inside. May do some 'tweaking' later.
See the pics of the angle finder held onto the dish, but without reference of 'where' on the dish, they don't mean anything.
If you have the specs for the dish. find the Offset angle. Set dish (face perpendicular) to Offset degrees below the satellites angle.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/ "Enter what you want to calculate or know"