Questions about the new XiP Receivers?

[DishSubLA]

Not true. The 813 has only one cable attachment. I mean.. it shows from pictures and connectivity drawings, that both the IN **and** the OUT are through the *same* cable (channel stacking). So long as the lengths are correct, it won't matter if the 813 is right at the switch, or 100 feet from it.

In fact the pictures show the 813 has hdmi, tv1 output right on the box, hence it would go where the dual DVR sits normally ... and then you can feed a TV directly ... thus cutting down on the number of 110 modules you need.

For reference the 813's ass end.
http://www.satelliteguys.us/attachment.php?attachmentid=64896&d=1304659742
(damned it, no picture of an FCCID for the thing, otherwise we might get a more concrete idea for what's in there)

from this thread
http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/254534-scotts-team-summit-photo-dump.html
(yes, picture attachments in the first post; lazy) (& no, lazy isn't in re to you John, just a little poke at those who are inclined "that" way)

The point wasn't full fledged or not .. but that for less than 100 bucks you have enough common hardware to facilitate 80% of a 110 box ...

Entropic » DBS Outdoor Unit Solutions
Right side, DBS deployment with CSS ... that's the switch we've seen in the pictures with the 813's thread, the three chips floating next to the house are represented for the insides of the switch.. for the 813/110's.

Entropic » Silicon TV Tuners
Those (note the size on the right side, next to a dime)chips support dual outputs (analog & digital) ... the output appears to distribute the intermediate frequency (call it channel 3 or channel 4 as a concept) which the next stage then demodulates/deplexes/decrypts, and feeds into the ATI like video chip, which then goes out to the ports (hdmi & composite)

So a tuner smaller than a dime, a previous example of how compact the ethernet routing with embedded linux abilities, and previously linked to the video chip that *can* support mutiple monitors and overlays (picture in picture is really an overlay of two channels into one video output, old'en terms RAMDAC)

horsepower? I give you Numo
Numo System-On-Chip, Low Cost Virtual Desktops | NComputing
The point of numo.. 30 dollars buys the power to offload the video work ... the streams are from the 813, the entropic is the tuner, Numo is the processor or better yet (looking at Western Digital's WD Live ... you have a Sigma Media Processor inside http://www.sigmadesigns.com/media_processor_overview.php ... and with an HD Live selling for 70 bucks, you can bet the Sigma isn't 90% of that cost)


... and all of that is from an outside POV .. someone inside the industry? an Engineer? thats where you get the 110, that's where you get the Apple TV, the WD Live ... so it *can* be done, its not as much overhead any more as you'd believe. And since the cost of things like those IPTV boxes is under 100 bucks.. you can better believe the cost of making a 110 is pretty low ... its the R&D that would have to make costs higher.. so that Echostar recoups their investment faster ... but in playing the long game .. will not have to gouge customers that much. (ie, no 499 for a 722k, 699 for a 922, but 99 dollars for a 110? that's easily feasible, and would have plenty of horsepower to do PiP, single stream or dual stream PiP since the manual for the 110 says 4 per 813, even though MoCA shows room for 10 distinct channels - 176MHz bandwidth == 10x17.6MHz MPG4 streams)

Anyway.. all academic till we have something more to go on..

I believe CSS is a solution for DBS in the IF stage--between the LNBF's and the set-top-boxes reducing the number of cables running from the reflector to the home--not part of Dish's deployment of MoCA for the XiP.

DirecTV uses CSS to allow for a single cable from the reflector to the home to provide programming to a number of STB's in the home.

Dish Network uses BSS (Band Stack Switching) technology to reduce the number of cables from the reflector to the STB's.

Neither CSS nor BSS is really better than the other as each has its gains and losses or advantages and disadvantages. Each represents a slight compromise when compared with the other.

 

[DishSubLA]

Probably won't be enabled when the system ships and will be added later via software update. Probably a lesson they learned from doing 922 development - aim expectations low. Less people to disappoint and turn against you.

EDIT: Were these two docs not put up at first? I could have sworn I saw these already.

Actually, the user guide stated "PIP is not an available feature for the XiP 110."

My word, it looks like this thing will NOT have PIP at all or ever. That could be a deal breaker for me. I use PIP extensively. I think Scott said that he thought PIP would be a feature of the XiP 110. Let's hope Dish makes that happen.

 

[JM42]

...it is promised to do...

This is why companies shouldn't preview products. I would argue Dish hasn't promised anything yet. They have let us know what their design goals are, but that is a far cry from a promise. Conversations at a dealer expo, CES, or any other trade show are little more than speculation.

 

[TG2]

I believe CSS is a solution for DBS in the IF stage--between the LNBF's and the set-top-boxes reducing the number of cables running from the reflector to the home--not part of Dish's deployment of MoCA for the XiP.

DirecTV uses CSS to allow for a single cable from the reflector to the home to provide programming to a number of STB's in the home.

Dish Network uses BSS (Band Stack Switching) technology to reduce the number of cables from the reflector to the STB's.

Neither CSS nor BSS is really better than the other as each has its gains and losses or advantages and disadvantages. Each represents a slight compromise when compared with the other.

Either or ... so long as the capability reduces the actual cable coming *to* the 813 to one single signal cable in ... and allowing the output for the 110's to ride out on that same cable.. which ever is capable and used by the respective companies .. is what should be "read into" my post..

My post was more about the fact that the technologies *are* there, the stacking does get done, and that the overhead is no longer a real concern, as there *are* chips that can handle multiple input signals, further broken into two ore more IF signals, and could drive PiP on a single output connector and more specifically it was to counter the suggestion that the 110 would not be capable of doing pip ...

One additional correction to my post above (I'd make it in that post but it won't let me edit it after this much time) is that I mean that I couldn't see an FCC id on the pictures of the 110 .. we *do* have the pictures of the fcc id on the 813 .. which led to the FCC filings for it, and that can give some detailed info.. but we need the FCCid for the 110 so we might see whats inside of THAT module..

and that's what makes the heart of my post acedemic in nature.. because we don't know what chips they are using... we can't get the specs on what those chips are capable of .... and I say it that way .. because even though they are capable of a function, doesn't mean dish will implement all functions..

 

[adkins595]

Will the XiP receivers replace the 722 or are they just going to be an additional option?

 

[JM42]

Will the XiP receivers replace the 722 or are they just going to be an additional option?

100% conjecture -- They aren't going to rush out and replace existing units, but I would think the 722's(and 922's?) days as new equipment are probably numbered. There are still plenty of places where 722s would fit, but an 813/110 should work as well or better. Production costs are probably better served by getting behind a single DVR platform.

Refurb VIP series will be around for a loooong time though. Dish always seems to milk a model as long as it is functional and they are still great units.

 

[Laddyboy]

I have a feeling there will be some substantial fees associated with the 813/110 system which may make VIP receivers still favored for a lot of situations. We'll have to wait and see what E* come up with.

 

[DustoMan]

Actually, the user guide stated "PIP is not an available feature for the XiP 110."

My word, it looks like this thing will NOT have PIP at all or ever. That could be a deal breaker for me. I use PIP extensively. I think Scott said that he thought PIP would be a feature of the XiP 110. Let's hope Dish makes that happen.

Then PIP would only be available when you are using the 813 unit. MoCA should have enough bandwidth to support two live streams, but maybe it's a hardware limitation of the 110 box. Who knows...

 

[Stargazer]

If they are going to charge more fees than the 722 then they would have to make it an addition to their receiver family. This is why they have 512 and a 612 disabling the second tv output. Their new fee structure made a more complicated receiver family by having to introduce even more receiver models to the field.

The issue I can see having having a 813 vs having two 722's is that you lose one tuner only having three instead of four. This may cause issues with timer conflicts. If someone has a lot of conflicts with local network channels and can receiver channels OTA then that could be the solution to the problem.

 

[navychop]

The 110 doesn't need much in the way of "brains." The 813 can do the PiP and pipe it as a single video stream.

Since it's been stated that this will be the standard new customer install, I don't think there will be large extra fees. Probably a base rate for the 813 plus a fee for each 110.

I think I'll still be happy with my two ViP722 units a year from now. Maybe the XiP813 will entice me one day.

 

[Laddyboy]

If they are going to charge more fees than the 722 then they would have to make it an addition to their receiver family. This is why they have 512 and a 612 disabling the second tv output. Their new fee structure made a more complicated receiver family by having to introduce even more receiver models to the field.

The issue I can see having having a 813 vs having two 722's is that you lose one tuner only having three instead of four. This may cause issues with timer conflicts. If someone has a lot of conflicts with local network channels and can receiver channels OTA then that could be the solution to the problem.

I think they may just increase the DVR fee like they do for the 922. Maybe make it $15 if you have an 813 with no lease fee but $200-$400 upfront like with the 922. Then charge something per 110 receiver. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. It's also possible they may completely redo the who fee structure when and if this setup becomes available. Time will tell.

 

[TG2]

Actually, the user guide stated "PIP is not an available feature for the XiP 110."
My word, it looks like this thing will NOT have PIP at all or ever. That could be a deal breaker for me. I use PIP extensively. I think Scott said that he thought PIP would be a feature of the XiP 110. Let's hope Dish makes that happen.

That's actually in the Trouble Shooting section of the manual .. in two other places.. with regards to the remote ... it states what the button is for (when in single mode) and the first says "not currently available" Such wording gives hope that ... like the TV2 out on the 922's ... its just a matter of time before *they* figure this sh*t out!

Then PIP would only be available when you are using the 813 unit. MoCA should have enough bandwidth to support two live streams, but maybe it's a hardware limitation of the 110 box. Who knows...

Could be very true ... or PIP may have to be implemented solely on the 813 and send a single signal stream to the respective 110. Of course if your TV supports PiP with diffrent ports on the TV used ... then you could get TWO 110 boxes, hook them both to 1 TV's in1 / in2 ports.. and let the TV's PiP do it..

... The issue I can see having having a 813 vs having two 722's is that you lose one tuner only having three instead of four. This may cause issues with timer conflicts. If someone has a lot of conflicts with local network channels and can receiver channels OTA then that could be the solution to the problem.

and for which supposedly you can "stack" two 813's, thus theoretically giving you 6 tuners ... 2 more than two 722k's has now (without OTA)

BUT ... as alluded to above ... if the 922 could be out for a solid year and a half .... with TV2 output disabled.. its possible Dish's version of "stack" only means two separate boxes that know about each other, as they do now in the case of 722k's they can both connect to the same satellite dish, they'd both cohabitate on the Single Coax of the house ... allowing any X110 to see any other X110.

Again . .. until they have instructions up for installation and ship the first unites... just guesses as to what they will and would do..

 

[theoak]

I think they may just increase the DVR fee like they do for the 922. Maybe make it $15 if you have an 813 with no lease fee but $200-$400 upfront like with the 922. Then charge something per 110 receiver. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. It's also possible they may completely redo the who fee structure when and if this setup becomes available. Time will tell.

Additional Outlet Fee ... like $7 per 110 ...

Either way ... I am sure it will involve some complicated formula ... time the speed of light divided by the mass of a black hole to the power of ... bla bla bla

 

[JM42]

... or PIP may have to be implemented solely on the 813 and send a single signal stream to the respective 110.

To do this the 813 would have to decode each sat data stream, draw each frame with PIP window displayed(not hard with the right display chip), then re-encode/re-compress to a reasonable level the the Moca pipe could handle. If it could that then it would essentially have Sling built in which we have been led to believe will not be the case.

Feeding two already compressed streams to the 110, letting it put things together would probably be the most efficient.

 

[Stargazer]

I can see Dish Network charging a fee for each 110 active off the 813 receiver. Maybe they are allowing stacking of the 813's so that if they do not see each other then one will not be active to prevent account stacking?

 

[cypherstream]

Wow look how small that is! Just big enough to fit all the ports in the back. Thats what I'm talking about!!!!

 

[TG2]

Wow look how small that is! Just big enough to fit all the ports in the back. Thats what I'm talking about!!!!

That's what I'm Talking About - YouTube

 

[GaryPen]

Without PIP it will lose a significant number of the base.......

I've never intentionally used it, except by accident when inadvertently pushing the button.

 

[GaryPen]

And here is the user manual for the XiP 110. I like the screen shots (although a few of them are from the 922)

Is a manual for the XIP813 available?

 

[SBacklin]

I know this thread is almost a month old since last reply but, from what I can tell reading some posts. You can have more then one 813 and a x amount of 110? My ideal setup right now would be 2 813s and 1 110. I would like to be able to sit at any TV in the house and watch a program that is recorded on either of the DVRs. That going to be possible?