OTA EPG Info Incorrect or Displaying 'Digital Service'

[Tampa8]

I love the OTA Dish has, and understand why they want to make it that you have to subscribe to get the guide info using it. What I am trying to understand is how some sub channels have the guide and some do not. It makes sense that they have to pay for the information. That makes my question even more relevant. Then why does almost all the Tampa, and all the Hartford (places I live) sub channels have the data? And I'm talking about all the way to sub channel 4 if there is one for a given channel. Why would Dish pay for data in some cities all the way to sub channel 4 in some cases, and not pay for sub channels sometimes at all in another area?

It makes me think there is something more to how the data gets there. Is it possible some stations transmit data differently than others, and in some cases the info is received via the OTA module, and passed to the receiver? There has to be more to it.

 

[TheKrell]

Sorry for the frustration. The information internally shows that local OTA guide information is provided with a subscription to local channels through DISH. That is almost verbatim. Taking it as a general statement, which some employees do, it is assumed that Local OTA channels means ALL OTA channels (including sub-channels). Unfortunately, that is just not the case. I had no idea until the formation of DIRT and our release into Satguys.us (always thankful for eye-openers). The statement, in actuality, refers to specific channels, namely the local stations that made the digital transition and were/are provided by DISH, excluding the sub-channels that came about as a result of the digital transition.

Current 'rule of thumb': if we do not provide the channel, we do not provide the data. Unfortunately, that is the manner in which it is handled.

Except that is apparently (from viewing my guide) not the way it's handled! Dish provides almost no subchannels via satellite, yet almost all subchannels I get OTA have guide data, including some additions subsequent to the transition. Maybe your exception above means that the only OTA subchannels Dish doesn't carry guide info for are those that popped into existence precisely at the digital transition. That doesn't seem like what you are saying, though.

My specific missing guide info (MHz network's WNVC/WNVT and my Ion affiliate WPXW) are those whose subchannel info is missing. WNVT made the transition a year before it had to, and WPXW's DTV transmission before the transition had all the subchannel info correct! What a mess.

 

[Mr Tony]

interesting....the AM21 that Directv uses has the same glitch
my TV's show the correct info. Havent checked the DTVPal converter box to check though

This doesnt make sense. Noted previously on a Dish receiver that guide info for 23-2 is off by an hour (hour earlier). Directv is the same way. Yet both my DTVPal converter boxes (Dish Branded) the guide info is correct and "80's at 8" (example used previously) is shown in the guide at 8 (not 7 like the others do).

Also 23-3 recently dropped the guide. Use to say "Country Videos" for 8 hour blocks and now has 30 minute "DTV program" in the guide. Its kinda moot point because Dish doesnt have the guide info and Directv doesnt even have it logged in the AM21 but just noting it

 

[TheKrell]

This makes sense to me. Tribune is off by 1 hr, while the broadcast station PSIP data is correct.

 

[mred]

Here in Cedar Rapids, IA, 20-00 (Ch 20 KWKB over satellite) has correct guide data. However, 20-01 (KWKB OTA) guide data is actually for KWTV out of Oklahoma City.

 

[Peter Parker]

I don't understand Tony

Your explanation makes it sound like we would not get subchannel info at all but we get it for SOME subchannels bit not all of them. Some subchannels like This TV are in the guide for some cities (e.g. baltimore) but not others (Washington, DC---although sometimes the THIS TV listings show up on the line for another subchannel fora day or two a ta time).

Sorry for the frustration. The information internally shows that local OTA guide information is provided with a subscription to local channels through DISH. That is almost verbatim. Taking it as a general statement, which some employees do, it is assumed that Local OTA channels means ALL OTA channels (including sub-channels). Unfortunately, that is just not the case. I had no idea until the formation of DIRT and our release into Satguys.us (always thankful for eye-openers). The statement, in actuality, refers to specific channels, namely the local stations that made the digital transition and were/are provided by DISH, excluding the sub-channels that came about as a result of the digital transition.

Current 'rule of thumb': if we do not provide the channel, we do not provide the data. Unfortunately, that is the manner in which it is handled. Personally, I like this method as much as anyone else on this thread.



I have been looking into this as long as DIRT has been around and have spoken with many people with regard to changing the current business practices surrounding it. During LIN, I drove for a change, using it as a catalyst to provide software that would actively read PSID information. I push, and it pushed back. I learned (during conversations and research) that the information is "purchased" from Tribune at a cost that I do not know. The business decision DISH has made was not to spend more money purchasing additional information from the third party, or buying and refitting the hardware and software needed to decode it from the data stream directly from the receiver or at the Uplink center(s).

My personal opinion, much like those of you here, is that gear should do EVERYTHING it is capable of doing. My goal is to find someone like-minded with enough pull to change the way it is. Hence tracking down leads.



New gear has nothing to do with the issue itself, but may prompt that 'like-minded individual' into stepping forward and saying "Hey, lets do this."

 

[Hall]

Your explanation makes it sound like we would not get subchannel info at all but we get it for SOME subchannels bit not all of them.

I have a feeling this is a mystery in a lot of places.... From the user's standpoint (us) -- and I base this on my experience plus reading what others have experienced -- I'll make some comments.

Current 'rule of thumb': if we do not provide the channel, we do not provide the data.

That is a starting point, in my opinion. Without question, if Dish carries your local ABC, NBC, etc, etc and you also pick it up via OTA antenna, they will duplicate the guide data for us (for the -1 channel).

Anytime that this doesn't occur, there's a "mistake". Mistakes can happen if the station changes some "numbers", possibly the TSID (from what I recall reading at AVS, it's some hex values) and Dish doesn't update things on their end, we'll see DIGITAL SERVICE in the guide. Rebooting the receiver, forcing a guide update, etc, etc will NOT fix this. The end-user CANNOT fix this issue. Calling tech support at Dish -- no offense -- is a waste of time. Reporting this issue in the thread on this topic here, well, ummm, never mind.... The best hope you have is to contact the local station's engineering department and hope you get a helpful person on the other end. It's possible they can put the value back to the previous value. If they do, our receivers will update on their own. Otherwise, the station needs to contact Dish. We have to presume they have a "special" phone number to call but based on my conversations with an engineer at our local PBS, they can still not get the "right" person at Dish !! He told me it didn't go well but he eventually got someone competent.

Finally, regarding the sub-channels that our local stations (only the local stations that Dish carries) broadcast, it's seems be that someone or some group at Dish loaded the "numbers" (see previous paragraph) that allows us to receive guide data for the sub-channels. Was it done unofficially ? Maybe... In my area, Dish carries ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS (can't remember the rest). I get guide data for ALL OF THEIR SUB-CHANNELS. It's not correct in all cases, but I get it.

 

[Albiondon]

Kansas City,Mo. DMA my zip is 66215 for Lenexa Ks
WDAF 4.02 digital service (Antenna Tv)
KTAJ 16.01 digital service (TBN) full power station not picked up by dish
16.02 digital service (Church Channel)
16.03 ditigal service (JCTV)
16.04 digital service (Enlace) spanish
16.05 digital sevice (childrens programming)
KPXE 50.02 digital service (Qubo)
50.03 digital service (Ion life)

 

[Tampa8]

I have a feeling this is a mystery in a lot of places.... From the user's standpoint (us) -- and I base this on my experience plus reading what others have experienced -- I'll make some comments.
That is a starting point, in my opinion. Without question, if Dish carries your local ABC, NBC, etc, etc and you also pick it up via OTA antenna, they will duplicate the guide data for us (for the -1 channel).

Anytime that this doesn't occur, there's a "mistake". Mistakes can happen if the station changes some "numbers", possibly the TSID (from what I recall reading at AVS, it's some hex values) and Dish doesn't update things on their end, we'll see DIGITAL SERVICE in the guide. Rebooting the receiver, forcing a guide update, etc, etc will NOT fix this. The end-user CANNOT fix this issue. Calling tech support at Dish -- no offense -- is a waste of time. Reporting this issue in the thread on this topic here, well, ummm, never mind.... The best hope you have is to contact the local station's engineering department and hope you get a helpful person on the other end. It's possible they can put the value back to the previous value. If they do, our receivers will update on their own. Otherwise, the station needs to contact Dish. We have to presume they have a "special" phone number to call but based on my conversations with an engineer at our local PBS, they can still not get the "right" person at Dish !! He told me it didn't go well but he eventually got someone competent.

Finally, regarding the sub-channels that our local stations (only the local stations that Dish carries) broadcast, it's seems be that someone or some group at Dish loaded the "numbers" (see previous paragraph) that allows us to receive guide data for the sub-channels. Was it done unofficially ? Maybe... In my area, Dish carries ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS (can't remember the rest). I get guide data for ALL OF THEIR SUB-CHANNELS. It's not correct in all cases, but I get it.

Great explanation, or summary. You noted what I did above, most all my channels have information for the sub channels (both in Tampa (all) and it Ct.(many) ) Yet some areas have very little or none.

 

[Pepper]

Update for Mobile/Pensacola. Nothing has changed except WFNA 55 (Dish, on Eastern Arc) just has "WFNA" in the listings in multi-hour blocks, while the OTA version 55.1 has the correct listings.

 

[Straybeat]

3-2 This TV! in Phoenix, az. just says Digital Service

 

[bowens]

Gainesville, FL DMA

WYME - 9-2 "Digital Service"

Thanks.

 

[Yragha]

KUBE 57.5 Houston, TX (ME TV) Digital service

 

[Pepper]

Update for Mobile/Pensacola. Nothing has changed except WFNA 55 (Dish, on Eastern Arc) just has "WFNA" in the listings in multi-hour blocks, while the OTA version 55.1 has the correct listings.

WFNA was fixed. All the others previously reported by me are still wrong.

 

[RT-Cat]

WGTU - 029-00 Traverse City, MI - subscribed no problem in EPG
WGTU - OTA 007-02 Same station - "Digital Service" in EPG

 

[jscud]

WFNA was fixed. All the others previously reported by me are still wrong.

Well that's one. Was the WFNA fix recent? I have yet to see any of the other requests fulfilled.

In the past Dish used to be somewhat responsive to EPG additions (at least for me). I have had the guide information added for subchannels in the Portland ME DMA on three separate occasions. It took a matter of weeks. Now they don't even answer my emails.

 

[Pepper]

Well that's one. Was the WFNA fix recent? I have yet to see any of the other requests fulfilled.

No idea why but it was different than all the rest. The dish-delivered channel (newly replaced SD with HD), not the OTA one, had the wrong data. I expect it would have been sorted quickly anyway.

 

[Mr Tony]

have a weird one on the 211K

In Minneapolis KMSP 9 (Fox) and WFTC 29 (My) the SD subchannel is on the others RF station. So RF9 scans in 9-1 and 29-2 and 29 scans in 29-1 and 9-2. (*suppose to) Issue is the SD version shows the "other" channels guide

So 9-1 shows right
9-2 shows the guide for 29
29-1 shows right
29-2 shows the guide info for 9

 

[Barry Erick]

Wilkes-Barre
38-02 - Me T "Digital Service"
43-01 - Faith "Digital Service"
43-02 - Days "Digital Service"
43-03 - CTN "Digital Service"
43-04 - CTVN "Digital Service"
(Previously reported by Garys)
64-01 - ION "Digital Service"
64-02 - qubo "Digital Service"
64-03 - IONL "Digital Service"

And the FCC requires every digital station to broadcast the EPG, not details, but the EPG with Virtual Channel info, Actual RF channel, time, Program Name and other details. Description of the program is optional and I know if the computer inserting this into the stream is down, DISH will not transmit the channel so they use it on Local channels. If I can't get one of the locals (not OTA locals) I know who to call as I used to take care of this at the NBC and CBS affiliates until I retired and I know all the other guys in the market who do it.. All of the "Digital Service" Messages come from the OTA channels. But not all OTA channels.. IF the main channel is on DISH, the ota sub channels have all information. So Dish Receivers do get the EPG. Once the FCC notices that this required info is not passed, I'm sure it'll show up

 

[Mr Tony]

I dont get why at least the main Ion channel doesnt get a EPG

But in addition to above
23-3 Country Network (digital service)
2-3 TPTLIfe (this was channel 17 back in the analog days which shows on the Dish system as 17 yet wont remap for OTA)