OTA blocked (Media General Station)

[TheKrell]

I don't see how that is so hard to understand.

It's not hard to understand; it's hard to believe! Big companies don't go on "understanding" alone, because when they do, one company or another will fleece you for all you're worth. Disney charging twice for the same channels comes to mind.

So, until somebody comes forward with intimate knowledge of the carriage contract that states otherwise, I continue to expect Tribune to supply Dish with the entire guide since Dish is paying for it, and I expect Dish to provide that info on OTA channels that are still available to those of us with an antenna. If the carriage contract has expired, then whatever clauses it has in it have also expired. So what compelling reason does Dish have to replace the guide on OTA channels with the useless Important Info? Have they signed a contract in perpetuity that states they cannot use 3rd party guide data? Well, maybe, but that also strains credulity.

 

[Tampa8]

Where perhaps the language could be, it happens between Tribune and the Networks? Could Tribune be bound to supply info only if it is to someone who carries the channel?

 

[Hall]

Could Tribune be bound to supply info only if it is to someone who carries the channel?

Certainly. The networks may require them to only supply it to "authorized" companies.

 

[Hall]

I'd say quite the opposite. The more that can get it OTA the less the impact to DISH. In past years DISH has distributed antennas.

That's only to shut people up... Why doesn't Dish install OTA antennas with (almost) every installation then ?

 

[whatchel1]

Where does the info come from for the OTA secondary channels when DISH provides it? They still remain when the main channel is in dispute. I would have thought the station would block all EPG info?

From Tribune, but it is the big 4 (or 5 if you are counting PBS) that really count. So that is why there will be guide for secondary channels. The numbers of viewers on the secondary channels are so small it mostly means nothing to either side.

 

[Tampa8]

For what purpose? That's like saying why doesn't DISH give a Roku to everyone then? Because in both cases it is something they do because the customer is being inconvenienced. My point was if DISH didn't want them to get it OTA they would have offered something else, heck if that was the case they wouldn't have OTA integration with their receivers. DISH would be thrilled if everyone could get their locals OTA it would end the threats of losing programming from the affiliates.

 

[whatchel1]

It's not hard to understand; it's hard to believe! Big companies don't go on "understanding" alone, because when they do, one company or another will fleece you for all you're worth. Disney charging twice for the same channels comes to mind.

So, until somebody comes forward with intimate knowledge of the carriage contract that states otherwise, I continue to expect Tribune to supply Dish with the entire guide since Dish is paying for it, and I expect Dish to provide that info on OTA channels that are still available to those of us with an antenna. If the carriage contract has expired, then whatever clauses it has in it have also expired. So what compelling reason does Dish have to replace the guide on OTA channels with the useless Important Info? Have they signed a contract in perpetuity that states they cannot use 3rd party guide data? Well, maybe, but that also strains credulity.

Tribune gets the info from stations. But Dish doesn't provide it simply due to the dispute. So they will put the important info phrase in the guide. I don't see why anyone would think that they would.

 

[sam_gordon]

Nope I used to be an engineer for TV stations. The data is part of the whole signal. So when the station no longer is being allowed to be reused then it is "understood" that the guide isn't to be used. So if you have something that can pick up the OTA guide you can have the info. But since the sat/OTA receiver doesn't have ability to use the guide coming straight from the station's OTA. Then there should be no guide data supplied to Dish via the middle man. Of course Tribune has it for other providers (like Directv) but it does belong to the station and reuse of the info really is not supposed to be used in any shape, form, or fashion. So dish has no rights to display it in their guide either as sat or OTA. I don't see how that is so hard to understand.

I disagree with you. Using your logic, Dish shouldn't be allowed to utilize OTA tuners at all. If they're not allowed to display PSIP information, they shouldn't be allowed to display the OTA signal. And we know THAT's not true.

Is Dish not putting PSIP info in because it's causes more of a hardship on customers? Probably. I simply think it would be a "good faith effort" to subscribers to have the PSIP information feed the guide. "We know the dispute(s) causes problems, but we're doing what we can to mitigate that problem." I'm sure they could find some way to spin it so the local looks even more like the "bad guy".

 

[Hall]

Is Dish not putting PSIP info in because it's causes more of a hardship on customers? Probably. I simply think it would be a "good faith effort" to subscribers to have the PSIP information feed the guide. "We know the dispute(s) causes problems, but we're doing what we can to mitigate that problem." I'm sure they could find some way to spin it so the local looks even more like the "bad guy".

Just as I said above, yes, Dish is doing it, in my opinion, to make it difficult for customers who use the OTA option. How about this, if one believes Dish doesn't do it on purpose: Add a toggle buried deep in the settings that would come in useful in situations like this for "OTA stations, use Dish-provided guide / PSIP guide data". Who thinks they'd even entertain the idea ? Well, let me re-phrase that: Who thinks it would get past the "business" group (the one that deals with contracts with networks) ?

Dish already tries to make the TV station look bad. Next time there's a dispute in your area and your OTA station(s) (the -1 channel) reads "Important info..." instead of the program info, call Dish and tell them something's wrong. They will tell you that the TV station is the blame for that incorrect guide data.

 

[sam_gordon]

Just as I said above, yes, Dish is doing it, in my opinion, to make it difficult for customers who use the OTA option. How about this, if one believes Dish doesn't do it on purpose: Add a toggle buried deep in the settings that would come in useful in situations like this for "OTA stations, use Dish-provided guide / PSIP guide data". Who thinks they'd even entertain the idea ? Well, let me re-phrase that: Who thinks it would get past the "business" group (the one that deals with contracts with networks) ?

Dish already tries to make the TV station look bad. Next time there's a dispute in your area and your OTA station(s) (the -1 channel) reads "Important info..." instead of the program info, call Dish and tell them something's wrong. They will tell you that the TV station is the blame for that incorrect guide data.

Of course they will. I've had OTA for many years now. The only reason I signed up for Dish's LiL (back when it was optional and an additional charge) was for the program guide. It frustrated me to no end knowing the data was in the Dish receiver, but I couldn't use it.

 

[whatchel1]

Of course they will. I've had OTA for many years now. The only reason I signed up for Dish's LiL (back when it was optional and an additional charge) was for the program guide. It frustrated me to no end knowing the data was in the Dish receiver, but I couldn't use it.

It isn't in the receiver. As E* strips the data off from the PSIP. BTW the last time they had a disagreement w/ a LIL for my area the timers still fired. I wound up w/ 2 recordings of the same events. I had gone in a set manual timers. So I had the original timer plus the manual one.

 

[sam_gordon]

It isn't in the receiver. As E* strips the data off from the PSIP. BTW the last time they had a disagreement w/ a LIL for my area the timers still fired. I wound up w/ 2 recordings of the same events. I had gone in a set manual timers. So I had the original timer plus the manual one.

It IS in the receiver. Where does E* strip it off if not in the receiver? The PSIP data is sent with the OTA signal. If you get the OTA signal, you get the PSIP. The fact is E* elects not to do anything with it.

 

[Hall]

It IS in the receiver. Where does E* strip it off if not in the receiver? The PSIP data is sent with the OTA signal. If you get the OTA signal, you get the PSIP. The fact is E* elects not to do anything with it.

Yeap, it absolutely is in there. Dish USES it as well - they pull the TSID from that data and use that to match up the OTA signals with their Tribune-supplied guide data.

 

[whatchel1]

Yeap, it absolutely is in there. Dish USES it as well - they pull the TSID from that data and use that to match up the OTA signals with their Tribune-supplied guide data.

When it was discussed in the past it was said it is stripped off via a filter as it comes into the unit. So maybe they have changed it since then especially w/ the outboard module on the Hopper.

 

[Hall]

When it was discussed in the past it was said it is stripped off via a filter as it comes into the unit. So maybe they have changed it since then especially w/ the outboard module on the Hopper.

First I've ever heard anything like that ! That sounds completely made up too !

 

[whatchel1]

First I've ever heard anything like that ! That sounds completely made up too !

The discussion was a couple years ago. It was related to 722k modules. OK just read the ATSC standards guide and what E* is doing is via s/w using the 1 bit hide guide flag. So it is very simple for them just to set that flag and all guide info is not going to show. So it's easy to do that and just kill the possible conflict. TSID info is just used as the channel's virtual ID shows up. So I now understand why some said in the past that the info was stripped off. It's not really, it's still there it's just being "told" we don't want that info w/in the s/w that E* uses. And if you don't believe it go read the book on ATSC and come back afterward. http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_65-2009.pdf

 

[Hall]

And if you don't believe it go read the book on ATSC and come back afterward

I presume you're not referring to me. I stated what you read about it in post # 73.

 

[whatchel1]

I presume you're not referring to me. I stated what you read about it in post # 73.

Actually they don't pull the TSID out at all. It stays in there and gives the channel ID info to the unit. They just set a flag to kill (or strip off) the program guide data from the PSIP. You were the one that was saying I was making stuff up. I just proved that I'm not.

 

[Hall]

Actually they don't pull the TSID out at all. It stays in there and gives the channel ID info to the unit.

You need to re-read my post again.

You were the one that was saying I was making stuff up. I just proved that I'm not.

Again, re-read that post as well. Unless YOU were the one who said there were filters and what-not, I wasn't referring to you.

 

[whatchel1]

You need to re-read my post again.
Again, re-read that post as well. Unless YOU were the one who said there were filters and what-not, I wasn't referring to you.

A flag is a form of digital filter. It tells the signal to not use a part of the signal. IOW's filtering the signal to use the parts that is wanted. It's not like say a bandpass filter but it still "filters" out what you don't want to use.