Opinions Wanted for antenna setup choices

[fmw63]

Hi. Upgading my antennas because I'm soon dropping Dish. I'm in MD 10mi east of DC, 35 miles south of Baltimore. Currently I've got an RS VU190? with a RS preamp on the roof pointed at the Balt stations, another RS amplified antenna up in the attic for the DC stations. http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2326366w345.jpg

I also picked up an AntennasDirect DB4. Most likely it will replace the attic RS antenna. Right now the antennas are on a switch, but i want to combine them.

Between the big RS VU190 and the DB4, which should I use for which stations?

 

[No Static At All]

fmw63,

If you desire both the Balt & DC stations you will need to keep the A-B switch, or put a rotator on the VU-190. Combing 2 antennas for both VHF/UHF reception with a combiner usually doesn't work well. I would personlly put a rotor on the VU-190 and dish the pre-amp.(You shouldn't need a pre-amp for Baltimore) You will have quite a few stations available from Hyattsville with this set-up.

I wouldn't consider the DB-4 as WBAL-11 in Baltimore is returning to VHF in'09 with a very weak signal. You'll be much better off with the VU-190. BTW, how does WUTB-DT-24 come in at your location now?

 

[Houston]

fmw63,

I agree, don't see why you would need an amp for anything your chart shows !

But, if you are committed to combining rather than doing an A/B then see...
USVJ Low Loss Combiner
I know that using a Combiner is frequently problematic, but it sure makes it easier given you don't have to do an AutoScan, each time you change from A to B, or enter the channels manually. Same applies if you rotate an Antenna.

If you're going to put those two on the same Mast, make sure you keep at least 4' between them, and if you use a Rotator on the VU, it'll need to go on top (of course). But using the combination of one stationary and one with a Rotator, is probably going to give you problems. My advice would be to use just your VU with a Rotator, or combine it with the DB making both stationary.

Given the wide "eye/beamwidth" of the DB4, I'd use it on your stations at 26° thru 71° True, setting it at an Azimuth of about 48°.

Your VU190 has a pretty narrow "eye" given it's directivity, and may take care of the stations at your 257° thru 286° (stationary at 270°).

Keep in mind that you'll probably get anything that's in the Green area of the chart, and gets very iffy at the Red. Blue will probably not be able to be seen at all. No doubt you have a lot of obstacles to deal with there.
Good luck.

Have a good Day !
S.W.

 

[fmw63]

Thanks y'all. A little more info: the VU190 does have a rotor on it. Also, there is a second smaller, old mast (left from the previous owners) on the opposite end of the house, where I'd put the DB4. Right now there is the rotor, the switch, and a remote control for the RS antenna in the attic! I'm trying for a "no-adjust" setup.

I've forgotten about Channel 24 - I don't remember seeing it recently.

An amp may not be needed for a signal straight to a receiver, but there's (I think) a 75ft cable from the VU190 to the 1x8 splitter, then another 50ft cable to the Dish 811 on the main tv, and 25 & 50ft for the other two. I've also got a Eagle 25db amp available, too.

 

[Houston]

fmw,

WOW!, you're going to be loosing a LOT of Gain if you go through that 8-Way Splitter ! Probably right at 14.0dB !

Given what I've told you so far, I'm not sure just what you're asking now.

Try to get your system as simple as possible (ya know KISS )
Like I said before, I think you'd be better off doing a stationary Azimuth with both the VU and DB4. bit. it's up to you.

Just try to get all the extra Splitters and other stuff out of the system. You can combine both Antennas with that Combiner I gave you, and feed one line down to your Set.

Or, you can split it for other sets with a 2-Way or anything beside that 8-Way, after you get through the Combiner. It'll really pull you signal down a LOT ! No wonder they needed Amps before, and you could use them again, just try to get the system up with as few components as possible. See how it works, then go from there.
Best I can offer.

Have a good Day !
S.W.

 

[fmw63]

Thanks :tux:

 

[truckracer]

If you are wanting to combine like band antennas you will have to use bandpass filters so you don't introduce more noise than signal.

You have to buy a bandpass filter for the channels you desire. Keep in mind on digital tv you need band pass filters for the physical channels the stations transmit on. Not necessarily the "advertised channel number".

These filters are somewhat expensive.

 

[fmw63]

partial update

So....i got the DB4 up on the roof just a day before the ice and rain, so I haven't time to tweak the positioning yet. With only a 25' cable running to the switch box (and another to the Dish 811), the 811's signal meter is showing about 10 less (mid 70's) than the big VU190+amp, and a few channels aren't showing up at all, so when the weather (and money) is better, I'll probably get a CM7777 or 0068DSB.

 

[fmw63]

UPDATE

Not great reception yet.
Equipment recap - for DC stations - a DB4 & HDP269 & 25-30ft. RG6 cable, for Baltimore stations - an RS VU-190 w/RS preamp, 50ft? RG59, both right now going to a switch. 25ft RG6 to the Apex DT250 in the bedroom, maybe 50ft (don't remember) RG59 to the Dish 811.

Put up the HDP269 today. DC stations are between 76-92 on the Dish811, with WFDC (Ch14) not showing up at all, and WETA (ch26) taking a while to show up, but when it does it's around 77-80. On the DT250, WFDC-14 is around 70 (yes, I know they are different scales), with the other stations in the mid 80's. WNVT (ch30) even shows up, at 60-62. Not on the 811.

I also tried a RS inline 20db amp to the 811, but not much difference. I even tried an attenuator just in case there was a too strong signal situation. Not better. Could this be most likely an aiming issue? I had to do this before I came to work today, so there was no one inside to check while I adjusted the antenna.

Also, does anyone else have an HDP269 with a noisy transformer?

 

[boba]

Remember the 811 is an old ATSC tuner no where near as sensitive as new tuners. The 811 is probably your problem.

 

[fmw63]

Remember the 811 is an old ATSC tuner no where near as sensitive as new tuners. The 811 is probably your problem.

Yes, I have noticed that it is not very sensitive compared to the DT250. All of the channels are watchable on it. But with the VU190 & amp, and going throught splitters, I was getting CH14 pretty well. With the DB4 going straight to a switch, and now the DB4/HDP269, it's not even showing up on the 811. Could a damaged cable cause an issue like this? When I was running it to the attic from the hole outside, it bunched up and there was a pretty sharp bend in it in one spot.

 

[No Static At All]

Can you hook up the DT250 to the end of the cable that ends at the Dish receiver?

 

[fmw63]

Can you hook up the DT250 to the end of the cable that ends at the Dish receiver?

I might do that if I can't wait until my ZAT501 arrives. At least I wouldn't have to climb the roof again to try it.

So far, not too impressed with the DB4. I didn't get much from it indoors, and thought it would improve outside.

 

[fmw63]

Well, here are the results (using the DB4) of the DC stations with the tvfool listing:
This morning WRC-4 & WFDC-14 don't show up (obstruction? both are at the same location), WETA-26 was in at 87, didn't show up at all last night, WMDO-47 still missing.

I received the Centronics ZAT501 yesterday, and tried it -the results were pretty much the same. (That is one weird box, as far as trying to get a sorted channel list...). The HDP269 transformer still buzzes, too.

 

[bhelms]

Is it possible for you to remove all preamps/amps/splitters/filters from your system and try it that way? I'd suggest a single (unbroken if possible) cable (new RG-6/U recommended) from the balun at the antenna direct to a receiver's input for this experiment. If you can't run a single unbroken cable, minimize the number of connections. Make sure all connectors and "barrels" are good. (You are using compression connectors, right?) Try any antenna, direct to a receiver. Aim for the best reception and record your results. Note the performance with both strong local channels to the west, and the weaker ones to the north. Try a different antenna, then repeat. Then try adding back in a preamp and retry both antennas. I'd recommend the HDP-269 you have. This way you can "kiss", as suggestned, and get a better feel for what each piece of equipment contributes or detracts. Make sure the antenna under trial is far away from any other antenna or obstacle including yourself as you measure the results.

As others mentioned I suspect you have too much amplification. It's possibly a combination of overload and added noise that is causing digital signal loss for the stronger stations. The experiment above would help determine that. Of the preamps you mentioned, the RS is probably the worst. I suspect it has a high noise figure, and that can kill a digital signal. In this situation you should go for lowest possible noise figure (1dB or less would be great). If you need any amplification at all, a 12-15dB preamp would probably be all you need. Later when you get into adding combiners/splitters/filters, etc. you may need to add a distribution amp. But wait until you get to that "final" configuration without another amp to see if you really need one.

Maybe you're already doing this, but a controlled experiment is needed, where you change only one variable at a time, record the results, and build from there...

 

[fmw63]

Is it possible for you to remove all preamps/amps/splitters/filters from your system and try it that way?... Try any antenna, direct to a receiver. ...As others mentioned I suspect you have too much amplification.

I guess I left out some of the latest setup info Currently, no splitters...

For the above listing, I currently have the DB4 outside, HDP269 preamp, 30ft (?) RG6 cable to a 4x2 switch, then another 50ft RG59 cable to the DishNetwork 811.

The RS VU190 at the other end of the house has the RS 30db preamp, through 50ft. RG59 cable to another input on the 4x2 switch.

I did try the DB4 alone to the switch, as well as various combos of indoor amps, splitters, etc. with different results (usually worse).

After putting the signals on paper, and looking at the TVFOOL locations, maybe I just need to adjust the antenna a little more, CH14, CH4 and CH47, I've found, are on the same tower...

 

[No Static At All]

After putting the signals on paper, and looking at the TVFOOL locations, maybe I just need to adjust the antenna a little more, CH14, CH4 and CH47, I've found, are on the same tower...

If you're looking for WMDO-DT47, it is on VHF-8. The signal is very weak (only 198 watts). Only a true VHF antenna will bring it in, even at your distance.

I do agree with bhelms about trying each antenna with no amps or splitters run straight to a tuner. I would bet money that the RS amp is overloading. The HDP-269 may overload too if the power inserter is too close to the antenna. I have personally tried the HDP-269, and it overloads my system, even with the power inserter 75 feet from the antenna.

The proper antenna(s) should easily pull in all the Balt/Wash stations for you. I get 99% of the stations within 70 miles of DC with no amplification whatsoever.

 

[fmw63]

If you're looking for WMDO-DT47, it is on VHF-8. The signal is very weak (only 198 watts). Only a true VHF antenna will bring it in, even at your distance.

I do agree with bhelms about trying each antenna with no amps or splitters run straight to a tuner. I would bet money that the RS amp is overloading. The HDP-269 may overload too if the power inserter is too close to the antenna. I have personally tried the HDP-269, and it overloads my system, even with the power inserter 75 feet from the antenna.

The proper antenna(s) should easily pull in all the Balt/Wash stations for you. I get 99% of the stations within 70 miles of DC with no amplification whatsoever.

CH47 - that may be right, I don't remember seeing it since I switched the VU190 to Baltimore duty.

I have run the DB4 direct - not very good at all that way.
The RS amp seems to be working well - the Baltimore stations are coming in fine, it's the DC stations from the DB4 I'm really having a problem with. I really think now that it's a tree problem. The roof work is going to be limited now - the weather's getting worse each day.

 

[truckracer]

rg-59 is really poor at uhf compared to rg-6, rg-11 is the pinacle of coax for uhf.

 

[fmw63]

rg-59 is really poor at uhf compared to rg-6, rg-11 is the pinacle of coax for uhf.

So I've heard, but where I had to run it, I don't want to replace it.

Actually, the DB4 does have RG6 on it to the switch. The VU190 is still working with the RG59.