One Meter Primestar Mini-Bud Experiment

[satcom1]

More Info

I am using a half oil funnel with foil for a "Scaler ring" on my 1.2 Meter dish -

(You can try something like that)

This is very cool picture.

Can you post more pictures and details?

I would like to see a picture looking down on the three LNBF's to get a true picture of their relationships. motor at zero.

From the center of the dish to the lens of each LNBF, how far?

Are you using Diseqc 1.2 settings in your H-H Motor for the offset lnbf's?

How many (degrees) East or West do you offset for the C-Band LNBF?
Is the centerline of the c-band lnbf on line with the others, or a little higher?

Feel free to post them in my thread.

 

[linuxman]

Well after working on the 1M dish most of the day, I am very close to where I want to be.

After several animated discussions with Anole trying to answer some of the questions I asked in a post yesterday afternoon, it appears that the answer to the question in the picture is "if you move the LNBf counter-clock in the picture, you also move the dish counter-clockwise. Anole was right and I was wrong.

I got a little help from Sadoun's site for setting up the SG2100 to get the answers to the other questions. You have to read very carefully, and follow the links provided, but the help is there.

So I put the new hangers on that I mentioned last night, and bumped the LNBF up/counter-clockwise, moved the dish up until I had 22 degrees on the dish face. Then called Anole and gave him credit for being right.

I worked with the dish up and down, skew, E/W, and just couldn't seem to get the Ku back to where I had it. I finally gave up and put the OEM Primestar LNBF back on to get a reading on the dish face where it actually was tilted for it. The dish face showed 19.5 degrees of elevation. Well that frustrated me a little, but I soon got over it. I decided to push the LNBf down a little and allow the dish to tilt just a tad more. I have pictures of the before and after. I ended up at 21 degrees on the face of the dish and allowed me to move the scaler in just a little which gave me my Ku back and I now have the best C-Band I have had so far. I have even got EWTN displaying without pixelation. The dish is tracking the arc very well using USALS only.

I got the current scaler off the 35K HTS Voltage Controlled C-Band LNBf I had here, and it has a partial conical scaler built into it. You can see by the pictures that the inner ring is half as high as the other three rings. That could account for the better C-Band signal.

I will fine-tune a little more tomorrow, and if I finish that will attempt to add some kind of conical scaler to see if I can improve the C-Band signal.

Here are the current pics of the new hangers, and the scaler:



All in all, I think it is going to be a very nice little C/Ku dish. Much better on C-Band than I ever dreamed it would be.

My wife calls it Baby Bear because the toy 6 footer is still on the parking lot, and the 10 footer is there. Papa Bear, Mamma Bear, and Baby Bear.

 

[satcom1]

Conical Scalar Ring

Nice work, very creative yet simple. :

Conical Scalar ring may require different mounting method. !sadroll

 

[Anole]

I think we're all working for the same things:
- understanding
- success

You'd think the sweet spot for the LNB would be where the dish tilts back from vertical by the bird elevation, minus the dish offset.
Another way to say that, is ... dish offset plus whatever tilt-back you measure, equals the elevation to the bird.
- your True South bird = 44.9°
- your mfg spec for dish offset = 22.6°
- so I expect your dish face to be at 22.3°

This is all the more confusing because of where you live.
If you were in Texas or central Canada, the numbers would be so much more obvious.

I do like your new copper plumbing hardware - :up
Gives the project an outstanding look!
Be sure to shoot those parts with some clear spray, so they stay bright and shiny...
... unless you're waiting for 'em to grow a green patina...

I kinda got lost in your 22°, 19°, and 21° settings.
This was the face of the dish.
You are saying that 22° sucked but 21° was the best you've seen?
With the C-band LNB placement being so non-critical, one degree of vertical movement seems suspect.
Oh, I see. I'm confused which band we're talking about.
You peaked the Ku by vertical movement of the LNB, and moved in the scalar for (which is probably what caused) great C-band?

Well,, sounds like you've got it well under control. Congrats. - :up

I know this may sound silly, but if you have a chance, take some Ku readings, then rotate the LNBf by 180° in its holder.
This should put you right back where you started.
I'm wondering if due to manufacturing technique or tolerance, it'll move your Ku sweet spot up or down...

 

[linuxman]

Nice work, very creative yet simple. :

Conical Scalar ring may require different mounting method. !sadroll

Thanks!

As I said, I already have the beginnings of a conical scaler, just need to add another ring or two to what I have, and I'll be done.

 

[linuxman]

I think we're all working for the same things:
- understanding
- success

You'd think the sweet spot for the LNB would be where the dish tilts back from vertical by the bird elevation, minus the dish offset.
Another way to say that, is ... dish offset plus whatever tilt-back you measure, equals the elevation to the bird.
- your True South bird = 44.9°
- your mfg spec for dish offset = 22.6°
- so I expect your dish face to be at 22.3°

This is all the more confusing because of where you live.
If you were in Texas or central Canada, the numbers would be so much more obvious.

I agree, but the numbers don't lie, and if this is where they are best, that is where it will stay.

There could be many variables that cause the 1 degree difference in where the dish falls. I just don't know which one to correct.

I do like your new copper plumbing hardware - :up
Gives the project an outstanding look!
Be sure to shoot those parts with some clear spray, so they stay bright and shiny...
... unless you're waiting for 'em to grow a green patina...

I hadn't thought about the green part, yes I should put something on them. :yikes:

I kinda got lost in your 22°, 19°, and 21° settings.
This was the face of the dish.
You are saying that 22° sucked but 21° was the best you've seen?
With the C-band LNB placement being so non-critical, one degree of vertical movement seems suspect.
Oh, I see. I'm confused which band we're talking about.
You peaked the Ku by vertical movement of the LNB, and moved in the scalar for (which is probably what caused) great C-band?

Well,, sounds like you've got it well under control. Congrats. - :up

That's ok, I kinda confuse myself sometimes and thanks!

I know this may sound silly, but if you have a chance, take some Ku readings, then rotate the LNBf by 180° in its holder.
This should put you right back where you started.
I'm wondering if due to manufacturing technique or tolerance, it'll move your Ku sweet spot up or down...

I don't know whether it will have any effect either, but what the heck, I will try most anything if I think it might give me a better signal.

 

[linuxman]

Is the purpose of the scaler to block unwanted signal and adjacent interference?

By asking that, the scaler really has no function as far as funneling signal to the LNBF. Correct?

If both of the above are true, how smooth does the inside of the coned shaped scaler need to be?

Thanks!

 

[linuxman]

Ok, here is my first attempt and after looking at my pictures, I may see the problem.

No affect on Ku, may have helped Vertical C-Band just a little. Hurt Horizontal C-Band by a good 5% SQ.

I may have it set too close to the center and need to cut off more and move it out to behind the next ring.

Secondly when I look at the picture from the side, the wire tie has the center of the cone pulled out, but the top and bottom pulled in, and that may be enough to affect the Horizontal signals.

Should I cut it off and move it out?

Should I just loosen the wire tie holding it and see if that helps the H signals?

Thanks for your help!

Here's the pictures:

 

[gremlin411]

I do not know enough to help you with a answer . But in the name of testing try both.

 

[gremlin411]

Is the purpose of the scaler to block unwanted signal and adjacent interference?

By asking that, the scaler really has no function as far as funneling signal to the LNBF. Correct?

If both of the above are true, how smooth does the inside of the coned shaped scaler need to be?

Thanks!

I do not think it matters how smooth it is. All of the ones I have seen on the web look just like the flat ones except cone shaped.

 

[linuxman]

So I cut the wire ties, and the problem with the H channels went away, so I made a new cut that has the scaler on the outside of the second ring and where it was sticking out a little over 2 inches from the lip of the existing scaler, now it only sticks out about 1 inch.

It seems to be working much better than the earlier attempt. It appears that I have picked up a little better signal because I am now pulling in some TPs that I couldn't scan in before. So far, haven't gotten more channels, but I am encouraged by the addition.

I will know more about bleed over from adjacent satellites soon.

Here is the modification I made.

 

[linuxman]

I am going to wrap up this phase of the experiment with a few results, and move on to phase two.

I was surprised at not getting any more channels than what I have after the big success on 91W, but I guess that satellite being my TS satellite I could expect the best results from there.

I am not going to post numbers because of the broad differences between receivers and meters and with C-Band being so different than Ku, it is pointless.

I did discover when scanning in G28 and AMC3 this morning, I got the Pentagon channel on both birds, so there is some bleed-over if satellites are next to each other at 2 degree spacing.

Here are the watchable C-Band channels I can pull in. Please remember, if they are watchable, they are pretty much watchable in all kinds of weather, at least up to a point.

127W Galaxy 13 - RFD
121W Galaxy 23 - HITN 2 channels
107.3W Anik F1 - Color Bar channel
99W Galaxy 16 - PR Nets 5 channels, WHT 2 channels, LSEA, 1 channel
95W Galaxy 3 - 5 Feeds channels
91W Galaxy 17 - CW Mux 3 channels, EWTN Mux 19 channels, The Word Network 2 channels, and Feeds
89W Galaxy 28 - Pentagon Channel

That's over 40 C-Band channels. Some of them might not be what you like to watch, but some of them have very nice programming. Couple that with still having Ku at your disposal, I think it makes the 1M dish using a SatelliteAV CK-1 LNBf a viable alternative to having to put up a standard BUD, especially if you live in an area that won't let you.

This morning I am going to take the CK-1 out and put in my HTS 35K Voltage controlled LNBF just to see the difference, and to see if it will pull in any more channels.

When I am finished with that, I have a couple of MA/COM dual input C-Band feeds here, and I might give that a shot. I am hesitant to try an actual co-rotor because of the weight both on the brackets, and the support arms, but we'll see.

 

[Mr Tony]

very cool Linuxman!

 

[satcom1]

1 Meter P* Experiment



Those are really good results.:up:up

You made a contribution to FTA, that should help all.:

Looking forward to your continued work and posting results.

My own experimentation resulted in the B1 Sat Stack producing just as good results as the BSC-621-2 but had sharper tune range.

The Panorama 13 degree C-Band LNBF produced nothing, nor did it's replacement.

I was in hopes that someone would come forward with a conical Scalar ring for you to test, You know, like brotherhood has sold here.

 

[linuxman]

very cool Linuxman!

Thanks Iceberg!

Those are really good results.

You made a contribution to FTA, that should help all.

Looking forward to your continued work and posting results.

My own experimentation resulted in the B1 Sat Stack producing just as good results as the BSC-621-2 but had sharper tune range.

The Panorama 13 degree C-Band LNBF produced nothing, nor did it's replacement.

I was in hopes that someone would come forward with a conical Scalar ring for you to test, You know, like brotherhood has sold here.

Thanks Satcom1!

I determined that my attempt at a conical scaler was not helping me, so I took it off this morning after still getting bleed-over from adjacent satellites. I may try a straight out aluminum strip kind of a step sort of scaler later.

I put the HTS 35K vintage voltage controlled LNBF on, but it failed to work at all. The little light on the LNBF itself didn't even light up, so I know something is wrong inside. Will have to investigate that later.

In the meantime, I got my MA/COM dual C-Band feed-horn out and put a Chaparral 20K LNB on the Horizontal side, and a 30K Cal-Amp Mini-Mag on the Vertical side. I just finished setting the skew and have it parked at the same exact focal length as the CK-1. At first I didn't think there was going to be much difference, but as I ran across the arc, the signal seems to be a little higher than previously shown. I am now scanning again to see if it really will pick up more channels.

I should also clarify that I didn't scan anything West of 127W, nor anything East of 72W on C-Band, nor did I scan Satmex 5, 6, and Anik F2. If the MA/COM and "real" LNBs (as someone earlier said) turn out to be better, I might expand the scan.

We should be able to tell soon.

 

[Anole]

offset scaler $30, with free LNBf

Yep, as a result of some searches prompted by another thread, I ran across a C-band LNB with what looks like a conical scalar.
It's on a Russian site, but the price of $30 looks agreeable.

I'll let ya make of it what you will, regarding specs:

???????? SVEC C-band ? ??????????? ?? ???????? ??????? (?????? 90??, ?????? 120??, ?????? 1,6?), 11?, ??????.???????. 13/18, ????????, ???????????? 3???.

13/18 sounds like voltage switching
11k sounds like they're bragging a bit too much on noise figure
the 90cm, 120cm, and 1.6m sounds like they're way ahead of us in small-dish C-band -

Anyway, the point is not to order one from Russia.
The point is that we should be able to get this item in North America for about the same price! -

 

[linuxman]

Yep, as a result of some searches prompted by another thread, I ran across a C-band LNB with what looks like a conical scalar.
It's on a Russian site, but the price of $30 looks agreeable.

I'll let ya make of it what you will, regarding specs:

13/18 sounds like voltage switching
11k sounds like they're bragging a bit too much on noise figure
the 90cm, 120cm, and 1.6m sounds like they're way ahead of us in small-dish C-band -

Anyway, the point is not to order one from Russia.
The point is that we should be able to get this item in North America for about the same price! -

Hey Anole!

Nice find. I would probably pay the $30.00 just to get the scaler assuming it would work for us.

You're right though, I wouldn't order from that site.

Who knows, that may just be what we are all looking for.

 

[linuxman]

After re-scanning the first satellite with the MA/COM feed and dual LNBs on, I noticed the old 30K Cal-Amp LNB responding a little slowly on the Vertical signals. It was working fine, but I thought it might be under powered with the FS IR-5400NA receiver, so I switched it with a new Eagle Aspen 17K I had here from the KC installer.

I gained a whopping 3 additional watchable channels and even scanned from 137W to 72W again minus Satmex 5,6, and Anik F2.

125W G14 - A Church channel of some kind.
123W G18 - JLTV
121W G13 - Some sports channel

So even with a commercial dual-C-Band feed-horn, and "real" LNBs you don't gain much more than what you can get with a CK-1, and for a whole lot less money.

If you had to buy the dual feed and LNBs, you are talking a minimum of $150.00 new, and $75.00 or more used. Stick with the CK-1 and keep the Ku/C-Band combo.

Later or tomorrow I will put the CK-1 back on and call it quits on this experiment except for maybe a real conical scaler if I can come up with one.

Here's the pics of the MA/COM and LNBs:



One thing about the MA/COM feeds, (I have three of them) they will come in handy if I every get my Prodelin dish.

 

[phlatwound]

I am not going to post numbers because of the broad differences between receivers and meters and with C-Band being so different than Ku, it is pointless.

Exactly right, experiments like this are proven out by the C-band channels you can actually view, anything beyond that beyond that, like some margin for rain fade, is just gravy.

This (and the other mini-bud capers) have been extremely interesting, keep up the great work l-man! :up

 

[linuxman]

Exactly right, experiments like this are proven out by the C-band channels you can actually view, anything beyond that beyond that, like some margin for rain fade, is just gravy.

This (and the other mini-bud capers) have been extremely interesting, keep up the great work l-man! :up

Thanks!

I would go on and try a co-rotor. I have one here with LNBs on it, but I don't think there is much point. Might gain another channel or two, but you just can't put in what God left out.

If the signal gathering apparatus is not there, no matter how much money you spend on it won't make it better.