no line of sight - lazy installer or ??

[flamtap]

I am trying to switch to Dish from TWC in the Raleigh area. At my scheduled install yesterday, the installer was not able to find a location on my property where we could get line of sight without either placing the big dish right in front of my house.

It also seemed like she wasn't very interested in trying to make it work -- almost like she was trying to talk me out of the install. Maybe she had something better to do?

I want to get the HD Gold package with Raleigh HD locals. -- this requires the 110/119/129 and 61.5 satellites? Is the 129 at a very low elevation? (my zip is 27518).

She mentioned a few things while here that I wanted to check out with you guys.

1 - Is mounting a dish on the roof a bad idea because of possible damage (to the roof) during windstorms?

1a - If it's okay to mount on the roof? Do most installers have the right equipment to work safely on a roof? (this installer did not, apparently.)

2 - If dish needs a pole-mount in the yard somewhere, must it be in concrete in the ground, or can it be in concrete-filled bucket which is placed in a stable location or partially buried (so the concrete can be easily removed later).

3 - The installer said she doesn't do "wall mounts" (attached to siding or trim) -- When I had Dish network in Colorado, the (2) dishes were attached to the wall. Does this depend on the size of the dish or the type of siding, etc.

I'd really like to ditch cable and go with Dish network... I don't want to give up on the install if the installer was just lazy, but if I really can't get line-of-sight without a ton of effort or an ugly install than I'll stick with cable for a while or see if I would be able to get DirecTV more easily.

Thanks, all!

-Ryan Thompson

 

[whatchel1]

A few things

Cary, NC would have a low look angle for 129. It would be better for you to have 2 dishes. 1 for 110/119 the 2nd for 61.5. The national HD's are mirrored on 61.5. I have 3 dishes on the roof. They just need to make sure that they are sealed well and have a solid set of wood lags on the foot of the dish. It is possible to mount the dishes on the wall of the house. It will flex the siding if it is say metal or plastic siding.

 

[dougruss]

If you know you have a "Line of Sight",and if the Installer is just Lazy......maybe get one of the Options at the Following Link, and tell them to use that Mounting point?

http://www.dishmountproducts.com/

 

[Hall]

At first, I was going to say that many installers get paid by the job, so it's not in their best, i.e. financial, interest to pass on a job. Then you list the "excuses".... Sounds to me like she doesn't do installations at all !!

Did she mention roof damage from wind ?? Roof mounts are probably the most common method. With the old SuperDishes, I've read that it was NOT recommended to roof-mount those.

Pole-mounting in the ground, with cement, is also another normal method. I asked about this just a few months ago and was told by other installers that it's in fact considered a "standard" mounting option, that is, not an extra cost. Mounting in a cement-filled bucket is common for apartments, condos, etc where the tenant isn't allowed to attach to the building. The bucket is placed on a patio or balcony, for instance.

Finally, wall-mounts are feasible too. They make 'plates' that adapt the angled siding to a flat surface. I don't know if all installers carry these though.

Who did this installer work for, by the way ?? Did you order directly through Dish or through a local store or Dish reseller ??

 

[gearheadchnc]

The 129 satellite is at 238 azimuth and 25 elevation the 61.5 is at 154 azimuth and 44 elevation but you should check with dish about hd local channels being available.

 

[flamtap]

Hi all,

Thanks for the tips so far. This was a contractor... From "Rocking R" http://www.rockingr.tv/ I ordered through Dish Network and this is who they sent.

It sounds like it will be hard to hit the 129 satellite, but I think it could be done with a dish mount just behind the peak of my roof. The question there though, is do I want a big dish in the middle of my roof when wind damage is a possibility?

If I can use 2 dishes on the roof to see 110/119 with one and 61.5 with the other will I be missing anything? It sounds like the Raleigh HD channels are on 118.7 -- I assume I would pick this up with the 110/119 dish?

Is it much better to have 2 smaller dishes on the roof if one big dish is not a great idea?

Is the programming on 129 the same as the programming on 61.5? So I only need one or the other? I am interested in HD channels and whatever HD locals are available.

Does anyone know of an installer in the Raleigh area that would do a good job with a roof mount? If I call Dish again and tell them I need a roof mount will they send someone with the right equipment to work on the roof? (The installer yesterday had 1 extension ladder that *might* have been 16 or 18 feet. No way they could get on the 2nd story roof with that.

Thanks again... you've all helped me separate the BS from the real facts.

-RT

 

[webbydude]

when you say "big dish", I certainly don't equate the D1000 as that much larger than a D500. What..3 or 4 more inches?

And with the expressed concerns of wind damage that you have, I would definately settle for a single dish solution.

Most techs should be able to reach the 2nd story of any roof. The peak is a bit different, tho. Depending on the pitch and steepness, there have been a few times I've had to either walk away from a job, or reschedule since my 28 footer wasn't tall enough to get to where I needed to be.

Regardless, I would definately ask Rocking R to send another tech or call up a local retailer that would be more than willing to get another new customer in his stables.

Good luck. The install does sound do-able.

 

[Van]

Roof mounts have been a long time standard but are frowned upon more and more as there are to many hacks that either dont seal the mount or dont know how to seal it and the owner/renter ends up with water damage.

East coast sucks for a good look angel for anything past 119 with dish.

Wall mounts are tricky, siding is easily damaged and even though there are kits out there for this type of mount on siding what is behind the siding is also another question. While doing some install work in Buffalo NY a few years back I found that many of the older houses had fiber board behind the siding and not much else, remember that stability is the name of the game.

If its a sub contractor then most likely they wont have the gear to do moderate to high level roof mounts of two stories or higher nor will they have a safety harness system, however techs employed directly by Dish do though if the tech is smart he wont get on any roof that requires a safety harness.

Dish installers both inhouse and sub are under alot more pressure these days to get the job done and get on to the next one like it was supposed to have been done yesterday. If your install would have been a big one then Im not surprised that any tech would try to " talk you out of it" before I left Dish back in may I had to go so far as to not go out of my way to make any install go through because of the work load that was being put on myself and other techs on top of the drive time.

 

[Claude Greiner]

Yes, installers are paid by the Job and you would think that its in their best intrest to do your Job to get paid.

The problem is this, lets say the installer gets 4 Jobs per day, its in their best intrest to blow off the hard Job and do 3 easy Jobs instead of spending all day doing the 1 hard Job.

 

[Mike500]

I get a lot of specialty referrals from dealers who have so called LOS situations. Having had past experience as a surveyor, I use a surveyor's transit to thoroughly explore the site.

It's not cheap, but some are willing to pay for a technical sight survey. In some situations, a hand held compass and clinometer just doesn't cut it.

 

[abfabguy]

I have a roof mount installed since 1997. The installer was from a local dealer where I bought my original Dish system from. The installer used roofing tar and seal over the roof mount screws and edges. I have replaced the dish a few times for upgrades, but the mount is the same and has worked great, never leaked, and still tight as ever.
The local dealer did an excellent job.

(I'm located in Northern Illinois)

 

[flamtap]

So, it sounds like if I want the job done right and it's a complicated install, that I'll be more likely to get quality work if I pay the installer extra to make up for the extra time he'd be working on my install...

I may be willing to do that... I'd like to get an estimate for that kind of work but I have no idea how to find an installer who is capable of doing this kind of install. I tried searching yellow pages...

Is there a good forum on SatelliteGuys where I can post and get references for a dealer in Raleigh? Should I try contacting a home theater installer or something and see if they have any recommendations?

My desire to switch from TWC is something like:
60% money: Dish is cheaper
30% features: Dish has more channels and better equipment
10% long-term-despisal of the cable monopoly

If the cost to install blows away the cost savings from switching to dish then I'll have to think on it for a while.

Thanks again everyone. Merry <whateveryoucelebrate>!

-RT

 

[abfabguy]

Flamtap - I did'nt know who to call either back in 1997. The dish had just started with the new service. I looked up the local antenna/sat businesses and picked the two who were in business the longest. I also asked around the town and their recommendations also seemed to be one of the two longest running businesses. It made sense to me. I picked one of them and they did an excellent job.

 

[Mike500]

I once did an install in the springtime that got treed out the next year. It was only two feet to the side that I got a permanently clear line of sight. I moved the dish the next year, and continues to have a clear LOS. It still does after five years. Although a hand sighting compass and clinometer like the Sunnto (I own three.) claim 1/2 degree accuracy, It's 3 inch sight radius and a shaky hand can make the readings off as much as 4-5 degrees. When in doubt, a rock solid tripod and a theodolite/transit (even the cheapest one) can get within 1/10 of one drgree. That way, you can really get the dish aimed right in the center of the hole through the trees, for the longest lasting install.

 

[SmityWhity]

If I can use 2 dishes on the roof to see 110/119 with one and 61.5 with the other will I be missing anything? It sounds like the Raleigh HD channels are on 118.7 -- I assume I would pick this up with the 110/119 dish?

There is a special LNBF to pick up 118.7, the other LNBF's such as for 119/110 will not work. Researching various web sites, it looks like Dish is uplinking 4 HD channels for your area, but only 2 are available right now. Again, this is not official, but from a fairly good rumor source. Looks like current HD channels are 6465 and 6467, with 2 new/future channels at 6466 and 6468. Your HD locals are on 118.7, while your SD locals are on 110 with one channel on 119.

So it looks like you will need to receive satellites at 119, 110, 118.7 and then either 61.5 or 129. All HD on 129 is suppose to also be on 61.5, plus 61.5 has some extra SD Public Interest channels making it a better choice.

Therefore, I believe everyone would pretty much recommend or say you will need 2 dishes, a Dish 500+ for 119/110/118.7, and a Dish 300 (or 500) for 61.5.
NOTE: A Dish 1000+ is identical to a Dish 500+, but has one extra LNBF for 129, so there is a single dish option, but 129 is said to be shakey and you don't get the few extra free channels.

At my scheduled install yesterday, the installer was not able to find a location on my property where we could get line of sight without either placing the big dish right in front of my house.

It sounds like the front of your house faces the south. Besides the roof mount, you may be able to put it in the back yard and back away from the house, but I'm not the one who can tell you how far from the back of the house and how high of a pole you'll need to clear the top of the house for LOS, and still be within a 200 foot total cable run.

However, what about on a very short pole (3' +/-) on the side of your house towards the front, maybe behind a fence, or in front of a fence but behind a hedge, and out of sight?

This will work in some cases since the signal comes in at an angle from above. Every couple of summers you may have to trim the top of the hedge a little!

There are probably more creative options with the right installer.

Good luck.

 

[flamtap]

Thanks for the helpful information! I'm going to try find a compass/clinometer I can borrow and hunt around my house and see if I can find a better location.

-RT

 

[SmityWhity]

I seen this last night after I posted above, and took another look at it this morning, but here's a thread on "Raleigh HD" with both possible setups. Take a look at Post 53 and Post 56.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=80532&page=6


And then Mike500 is only about 250 miles (4 hours) from you!

EDIT:
I forgot, there's a third option.
Dish 1000+ = 110, 118.7, 119, 129
Dish 300 = 61.5
DPP44 = 4 satellite location switch
DP21 = This switch will then allow you to switch between the DPP44 and the wing dish for 5 orbital locations depending on if the storm is in the SE or the SW, but not very effective.
But I think you will need two DP21, and then you will have to run two cables from the switch(es) to a dual tuner receiver instead of one cable with a DPP Separator, making the first two choices better.

 

[flamtap]

Just wanted to update everyone... I called Dish again and asked for a "better" installer... one who would be willing to work on the roof if necessary.

The installer came out and found a site in the corner of my backyard that the first installed never considered. The Dish 1000+ is pole-mounted.

The signal on 110 and 119 is in the 90's, and for 129 is in the 70's. This is lower than I'd like, but I continued to have signal even through some clouds and rain yesterday.

I am worried that I may have LOS issues again when some trees leaf out in the spring... I need to check a compass again at the mount point to be sure.

Anyways, I'm now a happy Dish customer again. The 622 box is really nice, much better than the Sci. Atlanta HD-DVR from TWC.

Next job is to hook up my OTA antenna.

Thanks again for all your help!

-RT

 

[navychop]

Thank you for keeping us up to date on how it worked out.

 

[Hall]

The signal on 110 and 119 is in the 90's, and for 129 is in the 70's. This is lower than I'd like, but I continued to have signal even through some clouds and rain yesterday.

My Dish 1000 (not a +) is roof-mounted, 25+ feet up, with 100% clear line of sight and I get similar numbers. The days of seeing 120+ are gone with multi-satellite dishes the norm. In the few months I've had the new dish, I can't say I've seen a loss of signal more than three times.