Multiple cables and pipe in the same trench

[armadillo_115]

Will I have any problem with this set-up? :
I plan to dig ONE shallow trench out to the first dish and the future dish site.That one trench will contain: Ribbon cables for both dishes, One common ground wire for both dishes, One waterline, And one 120V AC line.

The AC line will not be plugged in except while working at the dishes and possibly some weed-eating.(I usually use the gas weed eater ) The water line will be shut-off during cold weather...no freezing problem.

My main concern is any interference caused by the various lines so close together? And any problem with using a common ground for both dishes? Or something else that I didn't think of?

BTW,the ribbon cables will be inside separate black plastic pipes.AC line will either be burial grade or in a separate plastic pie as well,depending on cost.

I don't HAVE to run AC and water,but it would be handy to have both in that area.Due to septic lines, I can't space the lines further apart..even if I wanted to dig more trenches.

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

 

[migold]

For some years, I have been running 120VAC line in the same grey plastic conduit with 2-RG6 to one dish with no problems. I do not run separate ground wires. Actually, I do not ground my dishes, and do not carry ground lines between them. I don't recommend that practice, but I think some do.... I am running black plastic water line in the same 'trench' with RG6 in the grey plastic conduit, no problem; and ribbon cable in grey plastic conduit to another dish in the same trench with the water line for part of the distance. I encounter no problems. I can take some photos, if necessary. I use the 'service entrance' type of fitting when bringing the conduit up out of the ground. I believe that the grey plastic conduit is a good idea for me, as I plan to continue to use my cabling for some years into the future, and I want it to remain undamaged and un-deteriorated as long as possible.
I found that the grey plastic conduit is easy to work with and was not too expensive for me. It holds up well to sun exposure over the long term.
Oh, yes, my AC is used almost continually to power the electric fence around my garden. It does not draw much current, but is active all the time. And I do have it on a ground fault outlet before it exits the house. The AC is used also for running power tools occasionally, usually in the summer months.... It is very handy to have power near the garden and the dishes...
Good Luck! I have over 200 ft of conduit of multiple sizes under the lawn going to three dishes, and it took me a few years to get it done in spare time.

 

[Magic Static]

I have 6 runs of RG6 and ribbon cable with the power line to my shed in seperate conduits in the same trench. I have not had issues I could attribute to that being together in the ground.

 

[Titanium]

The planned run should not present any problems. To avoid "voltage potential" between components, you are doing the best practice by bonding the dishes together and to the structure ground. The bonding wire should not to be confused with the grounding. Both grounding and bonding are important, but play different roles.

Here is a short read that will help clarify grounding and bonding. http://www.cablinginstall.com/artic...ding-why-you-need-to-know-the-difference.html

 

[fred555]

What type of water line will you be running?
Copper, CPVC or PEX? The latter two will not corrode when buried.
If you use copper underground, go for the thicker type L. Type M is the cheaper thinner wall stuff.
You might want to bury the water line to below frost level (bury to 24'' in VA) since it will contain water,
unless you diligently winterize the line by blowing it out with compressed air in the Fall.

 

[navychop]

Or drain the low point. But that presents its own problems.

 

[fred555]

If the goal is some sort of spigot,
use a hydrant like this where the actual valve is below the frostline.
No need to drain for winter because when you turn the valve off,
the water in the stem self drains into the gravel through the drainage hole as shown below.
They come in different lengths depending on frost depth.

 

[ancient]

I have always buried black plastic irrigation pipe and then pulled my wires through that. The pipe is relatively cheap if you have to buy it, about $20-$30 for a 100 foot roll, depending on the size you get. Be sure to get it big enough for all the wires you intend to pull through it and also pick up a tube of pure silicone caulk to seal any exposed open ends (to try and keep water out), and also if you are going to pull multiple wires stop by the electrical department and pick up a container of wire pulling lubricant, which you squirt into the pipe rather liberally as you are pulling in the wires to reduce friction. You can use an electrician's fish tape to do the pull but if you don't have that, just tie a cotton ball or a bit of tissue paper to a pice of string that's longer than the pipe and use a vacuum cleaner on the other end of the pipe to suck it through, then use the string to pull a rope, then use the rope to pull the wires (unless it's really strong string, in which case you can skip the rope).

The advantage of this is twofold. First, if you ever decide you need to run additional or different wires, you don't need to re-dig the entire trench. Second, at some point you will probably forget exactly where you buried the wires and stick a shovel in the ground in the wrong place , and on that day you will be glad it hit a pipe rather than the wire. This is the voice of experience speaking!

Also I would not personally run AC wiring through the same pipe as low voltage wiring. It might not even be legal, but you'd have to ask an electrician about that. AC wiring can induce noise, and possibly even voltage spikes into adjacent wiring when the lines are run in parallels for some distance. If you are old enough to remember landline telephones, you may recall a phenomenon called "crosstalk" where a conversation from one pair of wires could bleed over (at reduced volume) into an adjacent pair, so every so often you could hear snippets of other people's conversations at much reduced volume. Transformers work on that principle also, the wires from the primary and secondary coils do not physically touch, but current is induced from one pair of wires to another in close proximity. So I just don't like the idea of running an AC line next to a low voltage line that connecting to sensitive equipment, since there's an off chance an errant voltage spike (such as lightning hitting a nearby power pole) could jump between wires and blast out the tuner input in your receiver. That doesn't mean that will happen to everyone that runs both kinds of wiring in the same pipe, but I just don't care for the risk. If you decided to do it anyway, I would suggest making sure the RG-6 you use has VERY good shielding, and is properly grounded.

 

[ancient]

What type of water line will you be running?
Copper, CPVC or PEX? The latter two will not corrode when buried.
If you use copper underground, go for the thicker type L. Type M is the cheaper thinner wall stuff.
You might want to bury the water line to below frost level (bury to 24'' in VA) since it will contain water,
unless you diligently winterize the line by blowing it out with compressed air in the Fall.

Not to stray too far off topic, but I thought that PEX could withstand freezing. Am I wrong about that?

 

[fred555]

Not to stray too far off topic, but I thought that PEX could withstand freezing. Am I wrong about that?

It withstands freeze damage better than metal pipe.
It is freeze damage resistant, not freeze damage proof.
I have never heard of the PEX itself splitting but
any of the brass connectors can split or push away from the PEX.

 

[ancient]

It withstands freezing better than metal pipe, but I wouldn't risk it.
It is freeze damage resistant, not freeze proof.
Any of the brass connectors can split or push away from the pex.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[fred555]

A study at NREL was done on freezing of PEX piping in 2005. Two PEX piping brands in various lengths and orientations were freeze-thaw cycled over 500 times without damage. Tensile data were taken at 0 C, indicating that the expected extension under uniform freezing was just within the linear portion of the stress-strain curve, indicating no permanent wall thinning at freeze. Testing included the fittings placed between one-inch to seven-inch pieces; a few brass fittings did break, but none of the plastic fittings available broke. A few of the 7" pieces broke. A PEX pipe with insulation tapered from zero to maximum in the center broke (as expected). Hypotheses are provided for why there was breakage in these somewhat anomalous situations (all to be avoided). PEX-AL-PEX was no better than copper, which can be frozen a few times without bursting. Details are available in a conference paper published at ASES in 2006: "Northward Market Extension for Passive Solar Water Heaters by Using Pipe Freeze Protection with Freeze-tolerant Piping", where results for PEX tests are presented (and see references therein). -

See more at: https://heatinghelp.com/systems-hel...-freeze-before-bursting/#sthash.vgigsDyS.dpuf

 

[armadillo_115]

No freezing problem.It will only carry water during warm weather.No need to water the plants in the winter.Basically saves me from dragging 100ft of garden hose across the lawn.It's down a steep hill,so no problem draining the line.Plan is to use the old-fashioned, black plastic water line...I forget the name.(Cheap stuff) Not that it mattersfor my application but I have been told that SOME standing water will NOT burst pipes if there is no pressure on the line.Draining as much as possible and leaving a spigot open is all that is needed.IDK

The same type of black pipe will be used for the AC line and Ribbon cables.Each will be in a separate pipe.

Copper ground wire will not be inside a pipe.

I left out that all the plastic pipes will be inside 4" pvc where it goes under the driveway to further prevent line damage.

I'm still crunching the numbers to do all this.I may decide to do without the AC and water line if it is too expensive.I'm heading out now to get some measurements.

Thanks for all the tips so far!

 

[armadillo_115]

Here is a drawing of my planned layout.Stepped off by foot,so may be slightly off.Don't laugh at my artistic skills. 'Dish2' is my current dish .'Dish' will be the new install.'Dish' will be set to drop into eastern side of arc.'Dish2' will be set to drop into the far far western side.

The box marked 'Utility' is where the water and AC lines will terminate.(75 feet)
One ribbon cable will go to 'Dish' (100 feet) *** Plus extra to reach lnb ***
One ribbon cable will go to 'Dish2' (145 feet) *** Plus extra to reach lnb ***
Ground will run 145 feet as well,,,for both dishes.
< Lines needed under house not figured in the above >
<Can NOT cross diagonally from 'Utility' to 'Dish2) because of septic drain field not shown>



Another question I thought of:The Sat poles will be only 45 feet apart.Can that cause interference? I know one can't physically block the other...but is even more clearance than that necessary?Thanks!

 

[Magic Static]

Always a fun thread full of ideas and sometimes answers when you are looking
http://www.satelliteguys.us/xen/threads/pics-of-the-dish-farm-post-yours-too.131140/

 

[armadillo_115]

Today I dug a trench out about 10 feet and knocked a hole thru the block foundation.I shoved a 3" diameter pvc pipe and a 4" corrugated plastic pipe thru the hole.Oh,and a ground wire.Covered it up so I can now build the flower bed above it.

I can shove whatever pipes and lines thru those pipes in the future... once I have the cash and decide exactly what all needs to be installed.Now to find a cheap source for 400+ feet of water line. Back home you could get all you wanted from old chicken houses being torn down...but that doesn't seem to be an option up here in the hills of Virginny.

Oh...something for y'all to laugh at: After filling the trench back up with dirt...I realized that I had forgotten to put in the ground wire. After sitting down and using some choice language I had a thought. I was able to shove it up under the two larger pipes and finally got it all the way thru.Sure glad I noticed that before the rain hit and settled the dirt.

Thank you guys for all the great tips!

 

[migold]

Armadillo; I don't believe that you will have an interference problem with the dishes closer than 45 feet. I have 2 C-Band dishes half that distance apart, and experienced no known problems. Of course, one can not block the view of the other looking at the satellites. I notice in the yards of TV stations and Cable head-ends, the dishes are very close together, like 10 feet apart. These are stationary and don't move across the arc, so they can't move into the view of another.
The cheapest sources I have found for long lengths of AC cord are the long extension cords at Lowes, Home Depot, or Harbor Freight. These are not rated for direct burial, but in a conduit they are protected.

 

[armadillo_115]

Migold, One dish MAY physical block the other dish.Due to the tree situation, the best coverage I can get for both dishes :

The dish on the east needs to work more of the western side of the arc. - This will be MY (living room) dish...hope to get 55W - 139W. This dish does 55w to 125w NOW with the old 18 inch actuator limiting the arc.(Has line of site for 47W - 139W). I want 127W back and hopefully beyond in case something good ever opens up there.BUT...this dish MAY point into the new dish somewhere west of 125 (Not sure yet)
The dish on the west needs to work more of the eastern side of the arc. - This will be Momma's (bedroom dish.I plan to mount the actuator on the eastern side so that it will hopefully go lower than 55W.Trees will block line of site anywhere west of approx 95W. (It is what it is) Momma rarely watches anything west of 91W anyway.Might even try a circular lnb sidecar for 30W later.This dish will never point into the other dish.

That's the plan anyway.The new dish site is not ideal,but I can not cut the trees more over there.We need the wind block.I may even let the wife have the 12 footer.

Was that confusing enough? lol

I have 100' of 12-2 elec wire that I MAY can get by with. I'd prefer 10-2 though because I need to be able to plug 100' of drop cord into it.It only has to run small tools like a drill or reciprocating saw.Also has to run my receiver,VBox, and monitor during set-ups/fine tuning.