More HD to move from 61.5 to 72.7?

[Scott Greczkowski]

New channels. I didn't start getting charged more for programming when they added the last batch of HD channels, did you?

They are advertising that the new HD channels are available in my package. I am paying for them, I want them. Again cable company does not chage me to upgrade equipment to get the channels I am paying for.

They haven't moved anything yet, but in principle I agree, before the service is shutoff on 61.5 they should have free options in place for people to upgrade. It's just a little early to be hitting the panic switch at this point in time.

No its not time to panic yet, when channels start being removed from 61.5 then we can hit panic mode.

Are they not reading the emails to retailers that you're posting into this thread?

This is all they have sent to retailers about this. Which basically means they are in the dark. As I said most retailers I talked to here on the east coast think the new HD is on 61.5.

Dish is not doing a good job informing them.

 

[digiblur]

Interesting note here:

Over the next few months many of the HD programming services currently located at the 61.5 orbital location will be moving to 72.7. These services will begin to be available in the next few weeks and will be simulcast on 61.5 and 72.7 until the full transition, currently scheduled for fall, 2010

Then they go on about the options... 61.5 to 129 repoint, or EA transitions. They also note not to do a 61.5/72/110/119 setup due to duplications of services. I can understand why though, as they don't want anymore hybrid setups. Not that they are going to stop the do-it-yourselfers, they just don't want installers doing them and having to support them.

 

[SpaethCo]

They are advertising that the new HD channels are available in my package. I am paying for them, I want them.

Sure. Again, this is exactly like the MPEG4 rollout. All of a sudden the HD packages had a bunch of channels added to them and if you didn't have a ViP receiver you couldn't receive them.

On the flip side, if they waited until they had every last customer in a configuration where they could receive all the HD channels, we'd never get new HD.

The people getting left out right now are the early adopters, and let's face it, things rarely work out in the long run for early adopters. Just look at all the folks that dropped thousands of dollars on displays that are limited today because they don't support HDCP.

Being an early adopter ensures you're going to pay heavily on 2 ends: a heavy acquisition cost to get the early deployment hardware, and a cost to upgrade once the technology changes as it goes mainstream.

Again cable company does not chage me to upgrade equipment to get the channels I am paying for.

Then switch to cable.

You know all the reasons that isn't a fair comparison, not the least of which is the cost structure of the service.

As I said most retailers I talked to here on the east coast think the new HD is on 61.5.

Despite the emails stating it was deployed to 72.7 and follow-up emails stating that core HD will be moving to 72.7? Maybe Dish needs smarter retailers?

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Maybe Dish needs smarter retailers?

You might be on to something.

 

[bwinroc]

Interesting note here:

They also note not to do a 61.5/72/110/119 setup due to duplications of services.

Last week I had 110/119/61.5. When the new HD came out on 72, I asked Dish via chat "What can be done to get me the new HD." They sent someone out, from Dish, who gave me a 500+ and has it aimed at 61.5, 72 and 77. And then I still have my old 500 aimed at 110/119.

When you say they are not supposed to do that type of set-up, will it cause problems for my account? Will they come out and point me back to 129 (for which the tech said is a horrible signal anywhere north of the PA border)? Will nuclear warheads accidentally launch?

 

[TravelFan1]

Dish sent the following statement out to its retailers last night...

Over the next few months many of the HD programming services currently located at the 61.5 orbital location will be moving to 72.7. These services will begin to be available in the next few weeks and will be simulcast on 61.5 and 72.7 until the full transition, currently scheduled for fall, 2010. There are two options available to continue to receive these services and to assure that you are able to receive the new HD services that have recently launched.

1. Many systems may be able to re-point their 61.5 dish to the 129 orbital position. This may require the addition of (currently) two 8PSK transmodulators and there are plans for additional transponders in the near future.

2. Some systems may be able to transition to a full Eastern Arc configuration utilizing satellites at 72.7, 77 and 61.5 ' W. Please note that this will require that ALL receivers on the system must be MPEG4 (models 522, 625, 381 and 811 are not MPEG4 compatible). We are also planning several additional transponder launches at 72.7 in the near term; additional details to follow in the coming weeks.

Please note that it is not recommended to add 72.7 to existing Western Arc systems that utilize 110 & 119. Due to issues with service duplications on the two configurations, it is recommended that the operator choose either full EA or WA

According to SatelliteGuys.US - Dish Network ALL NYC metro HD locals are only available on 61.5W - what exactly will Dish Network do for us, NYC metro subscribers? Keep them on 61.5? Move them to 72.7? Move them to 129? Force all HD subscribers at NYC metro to upgrade equipment to MPEG4? Man, what a mess Dish Network made here....

Scott>> Thanks for keeping us posted!

 

[dmag]

Sure. Again, this is exactly like the MPEG4 rollout. All of a sudden the HD packages had a bunch of channels added to them and if you didn't have a ViP receiver you couldn't receive them.

On the flip side, if they waited until they had every last customer in a configuration where they could receive all the HD channels, we'd never get new HD.

The people getting left out right now are the early adopters, and let's face it, things rarely work out in the long run for early adopters. Just look at all the folks that dropped thousands of dollars on displays that are limited today because they don't support HDCP.

Being an early adopter ensures you're going to pay heavily on 2 ends: a heavy acquisition cost to get the early deployment hardware, and a cost to upgrade once the technology changes as it goes mainstream.

Then switch to cable.

You know all the reasons that isn't a fair comparison, not the least of which is the cost structure of the service.

Despite the emails stating it was deployed to 72.7 and follow-up emails stating that core HD will be moving to 72.7? Maybe Dish needs smarter retailers?

I signed up for Dish five years ago. They installed my current 110/119/61.5 configuration.

At five years with Dish I don't consider myself an early adopter.

 

[digiblur]

Last week I had 110/119/61.5. When the new HD came out on 72, I asked Dish via chat "What can be done to get me the new HD." They sent someone out, from Dish, who gave me a 500+ and has it aimed at 61.5, 72 and 77. And then I still have my old 500 aimed at 110/119.

When you say they are not supposed to do that type of set-up, will it cause problems for my account? Will they come out and point me back to 129 (for which the tech said is a horrible signal anywhere north of the PA border)? Will nuclear warheads accidentally launch?

I wouldn't worry about it for now. Most of the national programming left on 77 will move to 72 next month or so from what I hear. I'm not sure what kind of setup you have as Dish500+ is not a 61.5/72/77 satellite. The 1000.4 is. I'd take a look at the dishes and look in your receivers system info to see what you have.

Dish is just stating they want pure arc setups so they don't have to accommodate the hybrid arc setups in the future. It only makes sense to have the flexibility to shift things between the 3 satellites on each arc without affecting people.

 

[Islandguy43]

According to SatelliteGuys.US - Dish Network ALL NYC metro HD locals are only available on 61.5W - what exactly will Dish Network do for us, NYC metro subscribers?

The same thing they did for you to get MSG-HD and Yes Network.

 

[SpaethCo]

I signed up for Dish five years ago. They installed my current 110/119/61.5 configuration.

At five years with Dish I don't consider myself an early adopter.

The early majority portion of the HD deployment curve didn't start until probably Q3/Q4 of 2007, when sales of HD TVs were accelerated by the price war for video disc players due to the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray standard battle, the start of the DTV conversion race, and the real start of the HD channel race between DirecTV and Dish Network. Prices are now starting to fall on HD displays as we are passing the peak of the early majority cycle.

It might not feel like you were an early adopter, but statistically you were.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Why do I get the feeling you work in DISH's marketing department?

If you dont let me know and I can hook you up.

 

[SpaethCo]

Why do I get the feeling you work in DISH's marketing department?

I work for a far more "evil" company (health care industry).

I just spend a lot of time charting technology trends and planning upgrade strategies as part of my job.

 

[nelson61]

Another carrot to encourage customers to upgrade to new boxes. I remember their comment a couple of years ago about a 4 year or so phase out of the older boxes. Every one the customers contract for is one they don't have to eat at the end.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

I work for a far more "evil" company (health care industry).

As I sit here I look out my window and see CIGNA, The Hartford and the Travelers building.

 

[rogerpl]

It's sad to refer to health care as an "industry". But at least i have a third dish pointing at 72.7!

 

[dmag]

If you go by your chart anybody who even signs up for HD now could be considered an early adopter.

The FCC first solicited proposals for HD in the 1980's

The first HD television broadcast in the US was July 23 1996.

Dish (and Direct) both started HD programming in 2002

Eastern arc went live, what, about two, three years ago.

Dish is basically saying that anybody who signed up for hd prior to that will need an equipment upgrade.

This is not a change of technology that is causing the problem, if it were a tech issue I would be more sympathetic. This is all a matter of convenience (and cost) for Dish.

 

[goaliebob99]

As I sit here I look out my window and see CIGNA, The Hartford and the Travelers building.

CIGNA is totally evil, They have one of their main processing centers down the street from where i live, and nothing but hoar stories comes out of that place. I have an aunt that works there in uppermanagment.

1. Many systems may be able to re-point their 61.5 dish to the 129 orbital position. This may require the addition of (currently) two 8PSK transmodulators and there are plans for additional transponders in the near future.

2. We are also planning several additional transponder launches at 72.7 in the near term; additional details to follow in the coming weeks.

Smells like more HD is coming, the question is how many transponders and what are they going to fill them up with. Hopefully HD rsn's and other channels such as ESPNU and other national HD that is missing.

 

[SpaethCo]

If you go by your chart anybody who even signs up for HD now could be considered an early adopter.

No, you'll notice that the timeline has no dates on it, simply percentages. The rough threshold is somewhere between 15-20% deployment before you cross over from early adopter to early majority.

Eastern arc went live, what, about two, three years ago.

Not even. I think the 1000.4/.5 just got released around the middle of 2008, and they didn't have all the satellites (77 was the straggler) until sometime in early 2009 I believe.

Still, the 110/119/129 arc was available starting sometime in 2006.

Before that it was the SuperDish.

Dish is basically saying that anybody who signed up for hd prior to that will need an equipment upgrade.

Just like Dish had to repoint people who were relying on programming from 148W, or the people who had programming on 105W when they decided to scrap the SuperDish, etc.

This is not a change of technology that is causing the problem, if it were a tech issue I would be more sympathetic. This is all a matter of convenience (and cost) for Dish.

If AMC-14 had reached its intended orbit, maybe.. but the reality is there is only so much they can do with 61.5 until E*15 makes it on station at the end of the year. I personally don't want them to hold up deploying new channels for another 12 months just because a few people have a legacy setup.

The only replacement hardware that's needed is a Dish 500 + wing swap to a Dish 1000.2, or a repoint of 61.5 to 129. When it comes to the markets that have their locals on 61.5, if I were Dish I'd do the cost analysis of firing up another spotbeam on the highly capable Ciel-2 sat to duplicate them on 129 vs the cost of swapping out everybody in that market to have all ViP hardware so they could be converted to Eastern Arc.

There seem to be a vast number of markets that have locals on both arcs, so my guess is the number of 110/119/61.5 subscribers that must remain on 61.5 and need equipment upgrades to convert to eastern arc is relatively small.

 

[nlk10010]

New channels. I didn't start getting charged more for programming when they added the last batch of HD channels, did you?
-snip-

When exactly did the people who are getting the new channels start paying for them?

So what we've got is Dish giving the channels to some people at no charge and withholding them from others who pay the same amount of money/month. This would be understandable if there was no way they could have accommodated those on 61.5 but they have presented no evidence to that effect.

 

[dmag]

No, you'll notice that the timeline has no dates on it, simply percentages. The rough threshold is somewhere between 15-20% deployment before you cross over from early adopter to early majority.

Not even. I think the 1000.4/.5 just got released around the middle of 2008, and they didn't have all the satellites (77 was the straggler) until sometime in early 2009 I believe.

Still, the 110/119/129 arc was available starting sometime in 2006.

Before that it was the SuperDish.

Just like Dish had to repoint people who were relying on programming from 148W, or the people who had programming on 105W when they decided to scrap the SuperDish, etc.

If AMC-14 had reached its intended orbit, maybe.. but the reality is there is only so much they can do with 61.5 until E*15 makes it on station at the end of the year. I personally don't want them to hold up deploying new channels for another 12 months just because a few people have a legacy setup.

The only replacement hardware that's needed is a Dish 500 + wing swap to a Dish 1000.2, or a repoint of 61.5 to 129. When it comes to the markets that have their locals on 61.5, if I were Dish I'd do the cost analysis of firing up another spotbeam on the highly capable Ciel-2 sat to duplicate them on 129 vs the cost of swapping out everybody in that market to have all ViP hardware so they could be converted to Eastern Arc.

There seem to be a vast number of markets that have locals on both arcs, so my guess is the number of 110/119/61.5 subscribers that must remain on 61.5 and need equipment upgrades to convert to eastern arc is relatively small.

Yes, I realize your graph was based on percentages, the question is when do you think Dish will reach 15-20% of their saturation, if it has not already.

As far as the 110/119/129 alignment. It depended on where they assigned your HD locals. They were still doing 61.5 installs right up until Eastern Arc went live.

This is also the reason I can't just repoint my wing Dish. My HD locals are not on 129. I would get the new HD but it would cost me my HD locals.

Dish does have options besides requiring customers to upgrade, or waiting on E*15. If E*6 is indeed heading for the 61.5 slot, as it appears to be, they can provide the missing HD as originally intended.

If Dish decides that it's in their best interest to move all HD from 61.5 to 72.7 then that's their call and it has nothing to do with the technology.

This is strictly a business decision and not the fault of the customer and they should not be required to pay for the upgrade.

If the number of subscribers who need new equipment is indeed a small percentage then a company like Dish should be able to write it off as "the cost of doing business"