Interesting Video on ATSC 3.0

[comfortably_numb]

I just wondered if the LP stations in KC have an approved higher power output because the signals would need to punch thru more since the population is much higher. It appears the LP stations out of Wichita have between a 20 to 30 mile radius. I requested a coverage map from one of the LP broadcasters in Wichita so they show 2 areas of coverage with the outer area being considered marginal and we aint even close. Pretty sad too because they have some pretty good programming. As i said i occasionally can receive the signal late in the evening. Alot of these channels i can receive with a c-band dish unencrypted (FTA), but I have no place at my home that would accommodate a c-band dish because of numerous LOS issues, so my 10' dish is at my shop (plus my wife does NOT want a 10' dish in our yard). I could perhaps receive ku signals from 95w to 125w maybe and ill be finding out soon as we near our cut the cord date (date we can cancel directv without penalty). But Ku doesn't have near the signals c-band does and sure we will have numerous options via internet but outages will eliminate quite a bit of viewing enjoyment (our fiber was down numerous times yesterday nearly all day, and wasnt back at 11pm last night). Now my shop is somewhat close to where i live, and with the use of rg-11 it could be possible to run a cable to my house and receive c-band, however I have to get a special variance from the city to run a private utility inter-sheath, and it will cost me $2400.00 minimum to have the inter-sheath installed on maybe a possibility of c-band reception. Still working an a deal with the underground installer on trading some work to lower or eliminate the cost since i have the largest landscaping company in the area, and they mess a bunch of peoples yards up installing the new fiber network in the county but who knows.

But I think of all the people that wont go to the extreme( lets face it if im willing to trade work for a $2400 dollar inter-sheath just to maybe bet c-band reception thats extreme) that i will to receive "free" tv. Its something that I hear discussed fairly regularly. On a side note though We do receive more then we did in the old days so I dont know.

Unfortunately not; I believe all LP's in the US are capped at 15kw. I do receive all of them with the exception of one, however. I use the RCA ANT751R with an RCA TVPRAMP1Z preamp

 

[harshness]

I just wondered if the LP stations in KC have an approved higher power output because the signals would need to punch thru more since the population is much higher.

Signal penetration has nothing to do with population. It is mostly about topography.

 

[Shicks4]

Just wondered, then that leaves some sort of terrestrial interference as the most likely culprit. Also could be transmitter height too. I must admit when it comes to OTA i dont know all the rules and limitations. Highly possible in my case being further in town reduces the signal which explains why the small subdivision on the NE of town receives more channels reliably. I havent tried putting my antenna higher then 30' either. The pole i have is 10' higher then the highest point of my roof and braced. Its likely its more like 28' or 29' to be honest. I have tried the antenna at every elevation on its mount possible. its at the best height for the channels i do receive reliably. One thing im thinking of trying this afternoon is a significantly shorter run of quad sheild rg6. Shouldnt bee too difficult, and im not really sure what the coax that is there now is but id wager the stuff i have for FTA is better, and a shorter run couldnt hurt.

 

[harshness]

Several years? Nah. Stations are going to try to plan for their rollout of 3.0 to coincide with the repack.

This assumes that they can find frequencies to broadcast on and that's absolutely not assured in some of the largest markets (and perhaps the most densely packed small markets).

The broadcasters who are all for ATSC 3.0 are still claiming that the repack won't be done until 2025 or later. Somewhere along the line, they're ignoring their bandwidth budget forecasts.

It appears that if the FCC schedule is held to, that the repack will have been completed in quite a few markets before commercial ATSC 3.0 is effectively able to be deployed. You can't just look at the end date of the repack and assume that everyone will be allowed to slide the extra two years. The FCC seems resolute in the idea that hardships will only extend beyond the phase deadline by a matter of six months.

Let's not forget that the repack doesn't have to wait for ATSC 3.0. The repack can happen without any new protocols or modulation standards. The repack is a federal mandate. ATSC 3.0 is something that some broadcasters very much want to do but it has to be within the applicable federal mandates.

Let's all remember this about ATSC 3.0: it appears that the supported video standards (A/341) haven't even been advanced to final standard status yet and I'm betting the FCC won't allow commercial broadcasts in ATSC 3.0 until the standard, in toto, is final.

 

[comfortably_numb]

Just wondered, then that leaves some sort of terrestrial interference as the most likely culprit. Also could be transmitter height too. I must admit when it comes to OTA i dont know all the rules and limitations. Highly possible in my case being further in town reduces the signal which explains why the small subdivision on the NE of town receives more channels reliably. I havent tried putting my antenna higher then 30' either. The pole i have is 10' higher then the highest point of my roof and braced. Its likely its more like 28' or 29' to be honest. I have tried the antenna at every elevation on its mount possible. its at the best height for the channels i do receive reliably. One thing im thinking of trying this afternoon is a significantly shorter run of quad sheild rg6. Shouldnt bee too difficult, and im not really sure what the coax that is there now is but id wager the stuff i have for FTA is better, and a shorter run couldnt hurt.

Have you ran a TV Fool report over at www.tvfool.com ? That will tell you what you should be able to receive at your location. If you're not receiving the channels that it says are achievable, then it might have to do with interference or some other issue at your specific location. If you want to begin a new thread with your TV Fool results in the Over the Air forum here, we can help you figure out how to maybe improve reception

 

[Shicks4]

tv fool says i shouldnt get any signals at my location, antenna web says I should get abc, nbc and univision. Also says im 44, 45, and 44 miles from the transmitters as a crow flies respectively. Also says if im not above 30' i will get no reception. However at 10' I have built some crude home made antennas and have received abc, cbs, nbc, fox and univision. Even my renter was getting those with an interior antenna, so I think they sorta lie a little on what you "can" get. And im running a pretty decent new wineguard directional antenna, and even added a 30 db gain preamp. Currently in the process of changing the rg-6 just sat down to get a quick bite to eat before hopping back in the attic to run a significantly shorter run of quad sheild rg-6.

 

[Shicks4]

wait you said tvfool, i thought you meant antenna web, yes I have done tv fool too and its saying I should get much more then i do. this is including the channels shown in red, which are the ones i rarely get. interestingly ABC is shown in red but i can get it with little effort.

 

[harshness]

Both antennaweb and tvfool are only as good as the location you give them. By default, antennaweb uses just your zip so you need to make sure that you drag your pointer to your antenna location.

In general, I find antennaweb to be a relatively poor predictor of reception. It says that most of my big-four network affiliates are deep in the red but I receive them all at >95% with a yellow antenna. I have a sneaking suspicion that antennaweb is biased against VHF stations.

 

[Shicks4]

I figured out one source of interference maybe. I noticed as i had the signal meter up on my tv screen every few seconds the signal would drop. On very strong signals it wasnt an issue with picture quality. I never noticed this before when fooling around with my antenna. Then i remembered about 3 weeks ago the power company installed a smart meter. I know they send a signal every so often so I had my wife skype my cell phone from the ipad so i could see the signal as i was at the meter and sure enough everytime the meter showed it was sending a signal the signal on my tv meter would dip. The connection via the cell phone would pixelate too. Im already south of the meter a good 40' to my antenna location and its up quite a bit higher. After changin the coax to a shorter run with new rg-2 and ends I was able to receive one of the channels that has about 7 sub channels but everytime the signal dips I lose picture on that station. However the 14 channels i always got are still there and do not appear to be affected enough to damage picture quality.

 

[harshness]

The people who feel put upon by smart meters say that the frequencies are typically between 902-928MHz and then again in the 2.4GHz range. The frequency used supposedly changes with each pulse in a predictable fashion.

There appears to be little you can do about them if they're spiking your TV tuner.

If your tuner isn't very good, it may be beneficial to try another one and see if it isn't more resistant to this interference.

 

[Shicks4]

Well I tried a couple of tvs today, I tried some AOC televisions that i had bought at radio shack, and the main tv in the living room which is a UHD LG that i ordered from a local LG dealer 2 years ago. One of the AOC tvs tuned 14 channels consistently. the other scanned in 11. The LG tuned in 21 channels and after moving the antenna a few degrees picks up 29 channels, but the group of 8 channels every pulse loses complete picture, and another 4 channel group is very spotty, and not even watchable. All 3 tvs were tested on the same line, same coax in the same room. The AOC tvs are fairly small, and one didnt pick up the Fox group of channels. So im trying to determine a place to move my antenna further away from the meter that wont have one of the huge trees directly in the LOS of the antenna. I did relocate the ground block for the coax today and retied it into the main ground closer to the tv. so if i am able to move the antenna ill just run a new coax from the antenna location to the ground block.

Is it the tv picking up the pulses from the meter, or the antenna. I know there have been some independent studies that show the pulses travel quite some distance but sometimes I wonder how reputable these independent studies are. But It appear that the pulses from the meter are the culprit. IM now wondering if some of the recent breakups we are getting on directv are related to the meter because the directv dish is only 6 or 7 feet away. Generally if its a clear day its not a problem but lately if its overcast or light rain its been breaking up. I thought it might have been moved from some of the north winds weve been having this winter but now I wonder if it isnt the meter.

 

[Shicks4]

I also have a linkbox 9000I local at the shop that I can bring home and see what it tunes in, will be interesting to see how good the tuner is in it, as i have only used the dvbs2 tuner thus far. I know on the dish network multi feed dishes i built the linkbox tuner didnt seem as sensative as the x2 m1 hd tuner, specifically on 97w hopefully the atsc tuner might be a little better the the one on the LG.

 

[primestar31]

Well I tried a couple of tvs today, I tried some AOC televisions that i had bought at radio shack, and the main tv in the living room which is a UHD LG that i ordered from a local LG dealer 2 years ago. One of the AOC tvs tuned 14 channels consistently. the other scanned in 11. The LG tuned in 21 channels and after moving the antenna a few degrees picks up 29 channels, but the group of 8 channels every pulse loses complete picture, and another 4 channel group is very spotty, and not even watchable. All 3 tvs were tested on the same line, same coax in the same room. The AOC tvs are fairly small, and one didnt pick up the Fox group of channels. So im trying to determine a place to move my antenna further away from the meter that wont have one of the huge trees directly in the LOS of the antenna. I did relocate the ground block for the coax today and retied it into the main ground closer to the tv. so if i am able to move the antenna ill just run a new coax from the antenna location to the ground block.

Is it the tv picking up the pulses from the meter, or the antenna. I know there have been some independent studies that show the pulses travel quite some distance but sometimes I wonder how reputable these independent studies are. But It appear that the pulses from the meter are the culprit. IM now wondering if some of the recent breakups we are getting on directv are related to the meter because the directv dish is only 6 or 7 feet away. Generally if its a clear day its not a problem but lately if its overcast or light rain its been breaking up. I thought it might have been moved from some of the north winds weve been having this winter but now I wonder if it isnt the meter.

What if for a TEST, you cover the smartmeter with aluminum foil? Maybe even run a ground wire to the foil. Obviously you can't leave it that way, but if that clears up the interference, you can experiment and perhaps get away with only shielding a small particular area around the meter.

Though perhaps your meter is faulty, as it shouldn't cause this sort of interference in the first place.

 

[Shicks4]

What if for a TEST, you cover the smartmeter with aluminum foil? Maybe even run a ground wire to the foil. Obviously you can't leave it that way, but if that clears up the interference, you can experiment and perhaps get away with only shielding a small particular area around the meter.

Though perhaps your meter is faulty, as it shouldn't cause this sort of interference in the first place.

I think a sheild made out of metal screen material would work too, and id have to cover the back side too so probably foil or screen material on the garage wall where the meter is hanging. Its more finding out if in fact it is the culprit but it looks more and more like it might be. I may have a screen strainer i could just hang on the thing someplace too.

 

[Trip]

Here's the adopted NPRM: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-17-13A1.pdf

- Trip

 

[Justin Hill]

So far, only a few TV stations are experimenting with the new ATSC 3.0 and UHD technology. One of them is WRAL-TV 5, an NBC affiliate out of Raleigh, North Carolina, who has an experimental channel set up for ATSC 3.0 UHD demo loops: WRAL-EX 39.

 

[harshness]

One of them is WRAL-TV 5, an NBC affiliate out of Raleigh, North Carolina, who has an experimental channel set up for ATSC 3.0 UHD demo loops: WRAL-EX 39.

The magic of using loops is that the video has typically been painstakingly encoded and optimized for the bandwidth in question. What happens when you have to encode content on-the-fly is a horse of an entirely different color.

 

[bluegras]

APTS Members Get Crash Course on Repack, ATSC 3.0
WASHINGTON—Public stations like PBS and other local channels like it provide many educational services/programs through their stations, but Wednesday afternoon they got a crash course in some of the biggest issues set to face the industry over the next few years. At the 2017 Public Media Summit in Washington, general managers from public stations across the country gathered to listen to industry leaders and FCC staffers about the upcoming plans for both the TV spectrum repack and the transition to the ATSC 3.0 next-generation standard.
http://www.tvtechnology.com/news/0002/apts-members-get-crash-course-on-repack-atsc-30/280459

 

[bluegras]

ATSC 3.0 on Docket for Senate Spectrum Hearing
Look for the ATSC 3.0 next generation TV transmission standard to get some attention at a March 2 spectrum hearing in the Senate Communications Subcommittee.
At least it made the list of issues teed up for the hearing, entitled "Exploring the Value of Spectrum to the U.S. Economy," according to a copy of the Republican hearing memo.
While the issue is listed as "NTSC 3.0" in the heading, the memo accurately frames the issue, saying that the new standard allows for ultra-high definition TV, immersive audio, targeted emergency alerts and more.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/washington/atsc-30-docket-senate-spectrum-hearing/163702

 

[NashGuy]

This assumes that they can find frequencies to broadcast on and that's absolutely not assured in some of the largest markets (and perhaps the most densely packed small markets).

The broadcasters who are all for ATSC 3.0 are still claiming that the repack won't be done until 2025 or later. Somewhere along the line, they're ignoring their bandwidth budget forecasts.

It appears that if the FCC schedule is held to, that the repack will have been completed in quite a few markets before commercial ATSC 3.0 is effectively able to be deployed. You can't just look at the end date of the repack and assume that everyone will be allowed to slide the extra two years. The FCC seems resolute in the idea that hardships will only extend beyond the phase deadline by a matter of six months.

Let's not forget that the repack doesn't have to wait for ATSC 3.0. The repack can happen without any new protocols or modulation standards. The repack is a federal mandate. ATSC 3.0 is something that some broadcasters very much want to do but it has to be within the applicable federal mandates.

Let's all remember this about ATSC 3.0: it appears that the supported video standards (A/341) haven't even been advanced to final standard status yet and I'm betting the FCC won't allow commercial broadcasts in ATSC 3.0 until the standard, in toto, is final.

Yes, finding frequencies to broadcast on in the more crowded markets will require spectrum sharing cooperation between competing broadcasters. I don't think anyone denies that. It will happen, both between competing high power stations as well as between high power and low power stations.

As far as all of the ATSC 3.0 standards not yet being finalized, that's true, although most are, and I expect the remaining ones will be finalized by late this year when the FCC will give broadcasters the green light to begin commercial broadcasts in 3.0.