Interesting Video on ATSC 3.0

[osu1991]

FCC Unanimously Approves ATSC 3.0 Rollout Proposal

http://www.multichannel.com/news/policy/fcc-unanimously-approves-atsc-30-rollout-proposal/411086

The FCC voted unanimously Thursday (Feb. 23) to approve a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to allow broadcasters to roll out the ATSC 3.0 transmission standard on a voluntary, market-driven basis.


The NPRM asks a lot of questions, and will still need to be commented on and a final order voted, likely months down the road, but it marks the beginning of broadcasters' move to a standard that supports interactivity, 4K resolution and data services that will boost their profile in the digital age.


Broadcasters must simulcast in both the current and 3.0 ATSC formats during the rollout.


MVPDs must continue to carry ATSC signals, but not the new 3.0 signals. The FCC seeks comment on a conclusion that a tuner mandate is not yet needed for TV receivers.

 

[harshness]

Preservation of stations' coverage areas and populations served were a requirement of the law authorizing the incentive auction. As such, station's powers are adjusted to reflect changes in specific frequency, but should otherwise maintain coverage.

No amount of legislation, FCC rule-making or bureaucratic maneuvering is going to bend the Laws of Physics.

 

[navychop]

no center speaker

Bummer.

 

[navychop]

So is every last detail of ATSC 3 carved in stone? Or will we have a Dolby Vision style "conundrum?"

 

[harshness]

MVPDs must continue to carry ATSC signals, but not the new 3.0 signals.

This suggests that there is a fundamental difference in the end product such that cable gives a tinker's damn whether the streams come in DTV, ATSC 3.0 or some manner of hardwired feed (fiber, TCP/IP).

Does this have a side effect of allowing an MVPD not to carry a channel once the DTV signal goes away (speaking in terms of must-carry status)?

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the TV/monitor manufacturers other than Samsung are prepared to go all-in on a quick change-over or hybrid tuners. LG has obviously taken a wait-and-see stance.

 

[harshness]

So is every last detail of ATSC 3 carved in stone?

The ATSC President's Memo from earlier this month shows several items still in candidate and proposed status.

 

[JosephB]

This suggests that there is a fundamental difference in the end product such that cable gives a tinker's damn whether the streams come in DTV, ATSC 3.0 or some manner of hardwired feed (fiber, TCP/IP).

Does this have a side effect of allowing an MVPD not to carry a channel once the DTV signal goes away (speaking in terms of must-carry status)?

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the TV/monitor manufacturers other than Samsung are prepared to go all-in on a quick change-over or hybrid tuners. LG has obviously taken a wait-and-see stance.

I don't get the whole hubub around MVPDs and ATSC 3.0. They're not even carrying ATSC 1.0 signals right now. They only have to carry the primary program of a given station, not every subchannel. There's no way that broadcasters will get anything more than that with the switch to ATSC 3.0, and AT&T and Comcast have enough power to keep a 4K mandate from happening, too, if they want.

 

[navychop]

The ATSC President's Memo from earlier this month shows several items still in candidate and proposed status.

That's what I thought. Voting on something without knowing what precisely it is. Sound familiar?

 

[harshness]

I don't get the whole hubub around MVPDs and ATSC 3.0.

There's no hubbub as broadcast television standards don't apply to MVPDs.

They only have to carry the primary program of a given station, not every subchannel.

True, but most of the cable companies do indeed carry subchannels.

There's no way that broadcasters will get anything more than that with the switch to ATSC 3.0, and AT&T and Comcast have enough power to keep a 4K mandate from happening, too, if they want.

Both AT&T and Comcast are offering UHD in some form so I'm not sure what all of your hubbub is about.

UHD commercial broadcast is probably quite a few years away. For that matter, ATSC 3.0 commercial broadcast is probably several years away; the repack will insure that in the largest markets.

 

[JosephB]

There's no hubbub as broadcast television standards don't apply to MVPDs.

If that were the case it would have no impact on must carry like you implied. And I apologize, I conflated your post with an unreferenced issue the American Cable Association (small cable companies) has with the ATSC 3.0 rulemaking process http://www.americancable.org/node/5737

True, but most of the cable companies do indeed carry subchannels.Both AT&T and Comcast are offering UHD in some form so I'm not sure what all of your hubbub is about.

Not all cable companies and not all subchannels. And I promise the NCTA, AT&T, and Dish will all have a major issue with UHD must carry should it come down.

 

[harshness]

If that were the case it would have no impact on must carry like you implied.

ATSC 3.0 won't be the TV broadcast standard for some time. The current process is uniquely to allow stations to also broadcast an ATSC 3.0 version, not to replace their DTV broadcasts. It will have to achieve significant penetration (upwards of 90%) before the broadcasters will be successful in making it "The Standard" and they can start sunsetting DTV. I expect that the mom and pops would have had to start providing UHD as part of their linear cable channel offerings by the time that the must-carry rules are amended to apply to ATSC 3.0 broadcast.

Remember that lobbyist and lawyers are paid by the word so they like to get their words out.

 

[NashGuy]

I'm not entirely sold on the idea that the TV/monitor manufacturers other than Samsung are prepared to go all-in on a quick change-over or hybrid tuners. LG has obviously taken a wait-and-see stance.

Where'd you get that about LG? LG has by far been the biggest proponent of ATSC 3.0 in the CE space. They've introduced 2017 model TVs with dual 3.0/1.0 tuners in their home market of South Korea. And they demo'd a 3.0 wireless network tuner at last year's NAB here in the US. LG and their Zenith R&D Labs have been all over development of the 3.0 specs for the last several years.

 

[NashGuy]

For that matter, ATSC 3.0 commercial broadcast is probably several years away; the repack will insure that in the largest markets.

Several years? Nah. Stations are going to try to plan for their rollout of 3.0 to coincide with the repack. The repack will have to be completed (with the exception of extension waivers) by the summer of 2020 and I expect that at least some stations in the vast majority of markets will be broadcasting in 3.0 by then. Plenty of NBC affiliates across the country will be offering up coverage of the 2020 Olympics in UHD and Comcast will of course be carrying it too, probably as a live IPTV stream. (They've already laid a lot of the groundwork for transitioning away from QAM to IP.) Various stations will have different time frames before the final end of the repack window when they must comply. I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one commercial station broadcasting in 3.0 in 2018, with several doing so in 2019.

 

[Shicks4]

Several years? Nah. Stations are going to try to plan for their rollout of 3.0 to coincide with the repack. The repack will have to be completed (with the exception of extension waivers) by the summer of 2020 and I expect that at least some stations in the vast majority of markets will be broadcasting in 3.0 by then. Plenty of NBC affiliates across the country will be offering up coverage of the 2020 Olympics in UHD and Comcast will of course be carrying it too, probably as a live IPTV stream. (They've already laid a lot of the groundwork for transitioning away from QAM to IP.) Various stations will have different time frames before the final end of the repack window when they must comply. I'd be surprised if we don't see at least one commercial station broadcasting in 3.0 in 2018, with several doing so in 2019.

At the end of the day I see only 1 maybe 2 of the major broadcasters doing so in full 4k, for instance take a look at the digital transition. In my market there is only 1 major broadcaster that actually broadcasts anything in 1080p, and that is NBC. All, and I repeat ALL others are maximum 720, with others at 480. Not even pbs, if you are lucky enough to receive it, does so in 1080p. I do hear that with the new standard there could be more subchannels at the cost of video quality, and again depending where they fall on the spectrum after the repack and possible power reductions loss of coverage. Where i live I can reliably pick up 14 out of 51 channels currently, and im only 46 miles from the furthest transmitter living in the plains of Kansas. On a really good day i might get 36 out of 51 channels. And the antenna is less then 3 months old and is a pretty decent antenna, and even after adding a 30db gain preamp gained me nothing but a better signal on the 14 channels i get reliably, and sometimes the other channels i mentioned whereas before i added the preamp they NEVER came in. I see this getting worse in my case, and I live on the plains, never mind having valleys and mountains. The ONLY people i see benefiting from atsc 3.0 are folks that live in town closer to the transmitters, and the dreams of a lot of UHD, are pretty much dreams. I hope im wrong, I really do because once they make ATSC 3.0 the main standard and DTV goes away there could be a vast majority of america that loses it OTA reception. I like the Idea, but how they are getting to the idea, specifically the repack, and transmitting both 1.0 and 2.0 at the same time sure seems like folley. Especially in big cities like Chicago, LA, New York, Ect. that have way more tv stations and channels then we simpletons here in the middle of nowhere.

 

[navychop]

I don't believe anyone, not even NBC, is broadcasting in 1080p. It is 1080i. "i"

Bandwidth requirements for 1080i and 720p are not that far apart.

Note that ATSC 3 has eliminated interlacing. UHD is all progressive.

 

[comfortably_numb]

At the end of the day I see only 1 maybe 2 of the major broadcasters doing so in full 4k, for instance take a look at the digital transition. In my market there is only 1 major broadcaster that actually broadcasts anything in 1080p, and that is NBC. All, and I repeat ALL others are maximum 720, with others at 480. Not even pbs, if you are lucky enough to receive it, does so in 1080p. I do hear that with the new standard there could be more subchannels at the cost of video quality, and again depending where they fall on the spectrum after the repack and possible power reductions loss of coverage. Where i live I can reliably pick up 14 out of 51 channels currently, and im only 46 miles from the furthest transmitter living in the plains of Kansas. On a really good day i might get 36 out of 51 channels. And the antenna is less then 3 months old and is a pretty decent antenna, and even after adding a 30db gain preamp gained me nothing but a better signal on the 14 channels i get reliably, and sometimes the other channels i mentioned whereas before i added the preamp they NEVER came in. I see this getting worse in my case, and I live on the plains, never mind having valleys and mountains. The ONLY people i see benefiting from atsc 3.0 are folks that live in town closer to the transmitters, and the dreams of a lot of UHD, are pretty much dreams. I hope im wrong, I really do because once they make ATSC 3.0 the main standard and DTV goes away there could be a vast majority of america that loses it OTA reception. I like the Idea, but how they are getting to the idea, specifically the repack, and transmitting both 1.0 and 2.0 at the same time sure seems like folley. Especially in big cities like Chicago, LA, New York, Ect. that have way more tv stations and channels then we simpletons here in the middle of nowhere.

Where in Kansas do you live? I'm near Louisburg in Miami County, 50 miles from downtown Kansas City, and I get 61 OTA stations..

 

[Shicks4]

I don't believe anyone, not even NBC, is broadcasting in 1080p. It is 1080i. "i"

Bandwidth requirements for 1080i and 720p are not that far apart.

Note that ATSC 3 has eliminated interlacing. UHD is all progressive.

Your right, I noticed last night that i was wrong while flipping thru the channels. NBC is in 1080i.

Where in Kansas do you live? I'm near Louisburg in Miami County, 50 miles from downtown Kansas City, and I get 61 OTA stations..

Im in Harper County, which is about 45 miles from the Wichita Airport. But most of Wichita's transmitters are more twards Hutchinson but there are some low lower transmitters actually in Wichita, but i have almost no chance of receiving them. Now If i lived 30 miles NE of here id be at the edge of the transmitters footprint. I have received some of the signals after 9 pm on a clear night, but they arent reliable at all. You might get them clear as day for 10 minutes then they fade out and pixelate, then return for another 10 minutes. The most channels I have ever seen in this area that was received reliably was 23 channels, with a cheap 45 dollar antenna with a built in rotor and amplifier at the edge of town. Ive tried several things to get more of the station where i live, different antenna height, multiple antenna array, preamps but the most i ever get is 14 channels. Those are NBC, and its sub channels, ABC and its sub channels, CBS and its sub channels, Fox and its sub channels, MY TV and its sub channels and Univision and i dont usually count univision in the channels I receive since i generally delete it out of the list.

Interesting thing is the PBS Transmitter are on the same tower as CBS Transmitter but rarely ever pick it up. And while there are trees between here and Wichita its pretty level land between here and all the transmitters. I can only attribute not receiving these signals to low power output and possibly terrestrial interference. Antenna tv has become a pretty talked about topic in the area recently as many people in the area where duped by AT&T to switch to directv and many are unhappy with the rate hikes and the general price for what we receive. There is also no option for cable in any of these small towns out here. Most people are receiving between 14 and 23 channels, and it seems that most of the people closer to the transmitters are receiving a higher number of channels. I feel lucky though as the town 9 miles south of here might get 1 channel, CBS, because they are kinda down in a hole.

But again a transition coupled with the repack and its issues kinda point twards less reliable channel reception to those of us who dont live in or close to small towns. Since you are closer to Kansas City I wonder if they have a higher power output. As even my brother inlaw who lives just south of Salina has issues with channel reception as well going back to not enough transmission power to reach out very far.

 

[comfortably_numb]

Since you are closer to Kansas City I wonder if they have a higher power output.

That's possible. All the Big 4 are a million watts. Of course the LP's are what they are, and we're lucky to have all UHF stations (for now)

 

[harshness]

Where'd you get that about LG? LG has by far been the biggest proponent of ATSC 3.0 in the CE space

The implication in the US market is that they don't support a tuner of any kind and appear to offer no tightly integrated support for a future tuner module. LG doesn't hold much sway in the US regulatory picture but I bet they do in South Korea.

 

[Shicks4]

That's possible. All the Big 4 are a million watts. Of course the LP's are what they are, and we're lucky to have all UHF stations (for now)

I just wondered if the LP stations in KC have an approved higher power output because the signals would need to punch thru more since the population is much higher. It appears the LP stations out of Wichita have between a 20 to 30 mile radius. I requested a coverage map from one of the LP broadcasters in Wichita so they show 2 areas of coverage with the outer area being considered marginal and we aint even close. Pretty sad too because they have some pretty good programming. As i said i occasionally can receive the signal late in the evening. Alot of these channels i can receive with a c-band dish unencrypted (FTA), but I have no place at my home that would accommodate a c-band dish because of numerous LOS issues, so my 10' dish is at my shop (plus my wife does NOT want a 10' dish in our yard). I could perhaps receive ku signals from 95w to 125w maybe and ill be finding out soon as we near our cut the cord date (date we can cancel directv without penalty). But Ku doesn't have near the signals c-band does and sure we will have numerous options via internet but outages will eliminate quite a bit of viewing enjoyment (our fiber was down numerous times yesterday nearly all day, and wasnt back at 11pm last night). Now my shop is somewhat close to where i live, and with the use of rg-11 it could be possible to run a cable to my house and receive c-band, however I have to get a special variance from the city to run a private utility inter-sheath, and it will cost me $2400.00 minimum to have the inter-sheath installed on maybe a possibility of c-band reception. Still working an a deal with the underground installer on trading some work to lower or eliminate the cost since i have the largest landscaping company in the area, and they mess a bunch of peoples yards up installing the new fiber network in the county but who knows.

But I think of all the people that wont go to the extreme( lets face it if im willing to trade work for a $2400 dollar inter-sheath just to maybe bet c-band reception thats extreme) that i will to receive "free" tv. Its something that I hear discussed fairly regularly. On a side note though We do receive more then we did in the old days so I dont know.