I had no idea that older 4K models only upscaled from 1080p to 4K...

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Yeah, they spread themselves out a bit. In the consumer AVR market they were not adding everything but the kitchen sink as others were doing which certainly made them look bad, especially considering their price points at retail.

It appears that they felt the pro gear was a place to be more profitable, and to be honest, I don't know nor care how that is working for them.

The home AVR market is very cutthroat if you've been watching. New gear announced at whatever price, soon followed by discounting all over the place.

In the home AVR market you might have noticed the issues that keep popping up as they cut ever more corners. Yamaha reportedly having problems with boards toasting themselves, and of course, Onkyo and their seemingly never ending battle with HDMI boards. And the list goes on.

The 3700 is actually a pretty solid box. But us fans noticed quite quickly that they were very light. While shaving weight off turned out not to be a bad thing, it made many think the quality wasn't there. It is, but the support had dropped off so badly that when problems arose support wasn't as much help as they had been in the past. HK's problems are mostly self-made unfortunately.


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HK is a public traded company and is at the mercy of the need to grow and prosper in the latest upcoming market for consumer electronics. Their latest expansion into automobile electronics. I don't follow the company too closely but have heard the rumblings on why they are proceeding in the direction they are. The auto dash board electronics market is just far more lucrative than the Home Theater market.

My speakers are the oldest components I own, dating to the late 70's. All are professional grade JBL systems, now also owned by Harmon. My surround and center channel speakers are Klipsch and SW are home made using Sony X-Plod car speakers and JBL 15" base drivers. The theater sound is only optimized for the front row seats. The rear seating is only used when I have visitors or more then just the two of us watching.

Harmon also owns Mark Levinson, Infinity, Lexicon, AKG, Revel and others. Harmon Kardon is just a division of Harmon International. The primary market now using the technology of the division resources is the Automobile electronics for auto control, internet connectivity, and media. They have dash systems now in 25 million cars.
 
Don Landis said:
HK is a public traded company and is at the mercy of the need to grow and prosper in the latest upcoming market for consumer electronics.
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Harman Kardon is NOT publicly traded. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of Harman International Industries, Inc. (NYSE: HAR) as you contradicted yourself later in the post.

One could argue that in consumer electronics, all companies must be ever vigilant to where they are and aren't competitive (ie. Mitsubishi consumer TVs). When mostly the same class of people (largely interchangeable tech labor and their insertion and soldering machines) are building everyone's equipment, its features and support that make the difference.

As pointed out, buying top of the line anything TV related for the last couple of model years was a poor choice unless you can see a few years into the future and be certain that you'll not want to go there. As crusty as that sounds, based on the history of 3D, I'm not looking at UHD for at least two years as I honestly believe it could either all change or we'll collectively lose interest due to limited ROI.
 
You may have mistook my abbreviation of HK to mean a stock symbol. I didn't mean it to be that, just short for Harmon Kardon to begin the sentence. You are correct the NYSE stock symbol is HAR. When you own stock in the owner of a conglomerate and the owner ( Harmon International publicly traded under HAR ) you own a part of the subsidiary along with all the other holdings.
If I want to own a part of Beats because I like their headphones, I would buy stock in Apple. Apple owns Beats. The P/L of Beats is manifested in the p/L of Apple. The consumer electronics brand of receivers is Harmon Kardon, which is publicly traded through Harmon International. They are not a privately owned company like mine Scuba Tech Inc.

It's besides the point that the company's efforts are moving to focus on OEM auto electronics, a bigger market than the AVR.
 
harshness said:
As pointed out, buying top of the line anything TV related for the last couple of model years was a poor choice unless you can see a few years into the future and be certain that you'll not want to go there. As crusty as that sounds, based on the history of 3D, I'm not looking at UHD for at least two years as I honestly believe it could either all change or we'll collectively lose interest due to limited ROI.
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It certainly isn't a poor choice though any thoughts of future proofing would be incorrect. Buying a 4K tv today gets you much better PQ regardless of whether or not it will be compatible with whatever tech change the content makers and mfgs come up with next.




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lparsons21 said:
Buying a 4K tv today gets you much better PQ regardless of whether or not it will be compatible with whatever tech change the content makers and mfgs come up with next.
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If you don't upgrade now, you won't know what you're missing and the next round will have all the same gains and more with a fraction of the price that you would pay today.

Of course, as has also been pointed out, the difference between HD and UHD upscaled HD isn't a quantum leap so many aren't realizing the real hope of UHD. Absent a large body of readily available UHD content, a dead TV is the best reason to buy a new TV so it comes down to how close the second best reason is.
 
harshness said:
If you don't upgrade now, you won't know what you're missing and the next round will have all the same gains and more with a fraction of the price that you would pay today.

Of course, as has also been pointed out, the difference between HD and UHD upscaled HD isn't a quantum leap so many aren't realizing the real hope of UHD. Absent a large body of readily available UHD content, a dead TV is the best reason to buy a new TV so it comes down to how close the second best reason is.
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At this moment in time there is little difference between UHD source material, other than some demo type stuff, isn't much. HDR and source material supporting it are an exception, and will become more valuable when they settle on which version.

Buying a UHD tv today in general you get a better tv that will suit the majority of users just fine. Things in the UHD market are still a bit of a hot mess, hopefully that will change over the next year.


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I think unless you have the new UHD display you can't know what you are missing. Seeing it in the store with the Demos doesn't do it justice. March 1, 2016 is the official roll out of 4K content. We're still in early adopter stages. There are some incompatibility bugs I am dealing with but the chief advantage today is the ability to offer significant improvements of image detail and color quality upgrading your 2K Blu Ray library to new contrast, brilliant color, image detail and sharpness. If you think your newest 4K isn't much better than an older similar LCD/LED TV or 2K projector you might want to get an eye exam and update your glasses.

I spent some time on the phone with a Sony Engineer Friday discussing of some of the compatibility issues and was assured they are aware of the problem with the only current US Market UHD 4K disk player, the Samsung UBD K8500. It basically is mapping some of the color information outside the BT2020 standard which causes severe banding and inaccurate colors. In this respect, if you wish to play any UHD disk content, there isn't a player available you can buy. But, the projector and panel 4K TV's have the benefit of doing an amazing job of resolution upscale from 1080-1920. It also greatly improves the 3D quality to near perfect.

There are about 5- or so UHD 4K titles on the market and only half are true UHD productions. Supposedly in August Panasonic will be marketing it's player in the US. It has been on sale in Europe and doesn't have the problems the Samsung has.
 
Don Landis said:
I think unless you have the new UHD display you can't know what you are missing.
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I agree, but if you have a good HDTV, you're not going to fully appreciate the extra investment for a while (expecially if you bought a model that isn't fully HDR/WCG capable).

On the other end of the scale, there are those Plasma weenies that will cling to their HDTVs like the Mitsu people clung to thier RPTVs.
 
Finally got up enough nerve to do the Sony firmware update. The last one really screwed up things for a few users which is why I was gun shy on proceeding. The firmware update take a long time to complete.

The good news is it fixed the clipping I saw in some brighter colors so that is now gone. Still have some banding issues on the UHD disks.


harshness said:
you're not going to fully appreciate the extra investment for a while
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We began to fully appreciate the investment immediately just for what it did for all our existing 2K content especially the 3D titles, now look so much better. Better than I expected. The projector also has a motion flow adjustment that eliminates judder often seen on 24 fps horizontal movement. Using a judder test pattern animation, you dial in the slider to bring the double images together. It makes the image lots sharper without the need for the sharpness adjustment.

What this projector will never have for BT2020 HDR HDMI2.0a content is 4K at 60p or 120p the spec allows. Currently there isn't anything available that will do that. Some speculate we'll see the 60p content first show up in games as opposed to movies. At this point in time, I'm not holding my breath for the next evolution in the Home Theater market now.

Did you see the new XBOX 1s will support 4K UHD HDR disk playback? Might be the lowest cost player for 4K yet. Supposed to be on the shelves in August.
 
Don Landis said:
Did you see the new XBOX 1s will support 4K UHD HDR disk playback? Might be the lowest cost player for 4K yet. Supposed to be on the shelves in August.
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The one that comes out in Aug. is $399 with a 2 TB Hard Drive, the $299 model with a 500GB Drive not until Nov/Dec.

The problem with it is only 1 HDMI output, problem for those who have older receivers, if just hooked up to the TV you should be all set ( as long as it handles the newer specs of course).

I am still waiting on the Panasonic, hope the lower price of the XBox pushes them to launch it at a better price.
 
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Tried to get VUDU 4K and it doesn't show up on my Samsung K8500. Seems the last update for VUDU approved apps on devices is the Roku 4 when connected to a 4K TV with HDCP2.2 and M & P series Vizio 4K TV's. So, I'll pass for now. The VUDU content is extensive now if only they would get the apps updated on 4K TV's. http://www.vudu.com/movies/#featured/12434
 
I just upgraded to Hopper3,4k Joey, and wireless Joey. I'm looking to purchase a Visio 55" P1 with Ips panel, I think that is what it is designated, other sized P1s use different panel. So, I would be go to go with Vudu. Any comments?
Dan
 

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