I had no idea that older 4K models only upscaled from 1080p to 4K...
- Thread starter edisonprime
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Congrats. While I'm not a fan of Sony AVRs I know many really like them.
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- Nov 29, 2003
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Untrue, with 4K content on Netflix and Amazon using the Roku 4 you get DD Plus, with 4K content on Vudu you get Atmos or DD+.
I don't have an Atmos setup so I wouldn't know about that. But I've tested those 3 services both with optical and HDMI and if there is a sonic difference I sure don't hear it. And since that is the case I don't give it a thought these days.
For info I have a 7.1 setup using a Harman Kardon 3600 AVR currently. Tests were done with that and a previous Denon S900. Results were the same, no discernible difference whether I got audio from HDMI or optical. Note I'm not saying that optical can pass anything but DD.
Possibly Atmos would be a different story, I have no way of actually knowing or testing that.
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For info I have a 7.1 setup using a Harman Kardon 3600 AVR currently. Tests were done with that and a previous Denon S900. Results were the same, no discernible difference whether I got audio from HDMI or optical. Note I'm not saying that optical can pass anything but DD.
Possibly Atmos would be a different story, I have no way of actually knowing or testing that.
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- Nov 29, 2003
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But what devices did you plug into your AVR that you could not get DD Plus with 4K?
I personally don't see any reason to upgrade from this... 
LOL
Maybe when they get as good as the holodeck on the Enterprise I'll change my mind...
LOLMaybe when they get as good as the holodeck on the Enterprise I'll change my mind...
I get DD+ from my BluRay player with the Netflix, Amazon and Vudu apps. Couldn't check with actual 4K as it doesn't do that but the DD+ on those services is not peculiar to just 4K.
And what I said was I got it, played it via HDMI. Then same sources played using optical audio and the difference was not discernible by me. There may in fact be a difference, but if I can't hear it, it doesn't matter.
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Imagine all those who've bought high-end "4K Blu-ray players" that find that the units can't play UHD Blu-rays. Your receiver is in exactly the same boat: It upscales to UHD but it won't accept a UHD input. Your interpretation of the receivers 4K feature was way off base.
Like lparsons21, I'd wait at least until CES 2018 if possible to make sure everything has been sorted out if you're demanding everything they're promising today. If you can be happy with exactly what the model you're considering promises, there are few worries. That said, in the world of DRM, there are things that you can't pull off with a firmware update (like upgrading HDMI 2.0 to HDMI 2.2).
That's a good thing because optical is the lowest form of digital transmission in the AVR world. It maxes out at 5.1 with Dolby Digital. DTS can reach 7.1.
The problem with doing things your way is that the optical audio may eventually be clamped down to 2.0 (or disabled entirely) as they're no way to chain DRM over optical (or coaxial for that matter).
Yeah, but with the way they keep changing things as much and as fast as they are my wallet can't keep up!
Fortunately my AVR can take even stereo and make it very good, that's the best thing that has happened to AVRs over the years.
I noticed an oddity tonight. Watching Prime from my FireTV box connected to the TV, the FireTV is showing it is getting DD+ but is only sending stereo out the optical port on the TV. I know I've looked at that before and it was passing DD just fine. Probably one of the 'quirks' with Android TVOS of which there are many.
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Correction. The problem is the FireTV. Watching True Blood on Amazon Prime goes through in stereo if using the FireTV. Use bluray player and amazon prime and it is in DD+. But it is a mixed bag, some shows do stereo, some do DD with the optical on Amazon Prime. I can't figure out why shows that should be in DD or DD+ don't always do that.
Oddly it seems only locked to some of the Amazon Prime stuff because watching True Blood on HBO Go on the FireTV is DD. So the issue is a FireTV oddity, not my TV itself.
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Oddly it seems only locked to some of the Amazon Prime stuff because watching True Blood on HBO Go on the FireTV is DD. So the issue is a FireTV oddity, not my TV itself.
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The STB controls its optical output according to the dictates of the individual program's DRM. If the content is "protected", the audio on non-HDCP digital outputs (both optical AND coaxial) are either downconverted to stereo or silenced. Older equipment may not behave by-the-book because it wasn't being rigorously tested for compliance when its HDMI was being evaluated (see more at "analog hole"). Now things are different and hardware is much more likely to behave according to the latest rules that hamstring optical and coaxial.
As far as I know, HDCP 2.2 doesn't provide any fallback; the "chain" either satisfies HDCP 2.2 or it doesn't satisfy HDCP at all.
The FireTV box is current model and fully HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 equipped.
The issue I'm seing is just odd. True Blood on Amazon Prime kicks out stereo via optical. Same show on Amazon Prime on the BluRay player kicks out DD. But other shows on Amazon Prime on the FireTV output DD just fine via optical.
Like I said, just odd. Of course since I sub to HBO I just go ahead and use HBO Go on the FireTV and all is good.
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The issue I'm seing is just odd. True Blood on Amazon Prime kicks out stereo via optical. Same show on Amazon Prime on the BluRay player kicks out DD. But other shows on Amazon Prime on the FireTV output DD just fine via optical.
Like I said, just odd. Of course since I sub to HBO I just go ahead and use HBO Go on the FireTV and all is good.
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It is my hope that most of this will be sorted by CES 2018. At some point it just becomes a numbers game (like AVRs that claim frequency response to 40KHz) and based on the charts and graphs we're seeing now, today's TV are can't get much closer to theater.Yeah, but with the way they keep changing things as much and as fast as they are my wallet can't keep up!
Maybe looking at it like CD vs LP is useful. We'll trade consistency and durability for minor nits in "quality".
HDCP covers both video and audio information. There's currently no mechanism to insure that you're not recording the audio content with optical or coaxial. The only way to insure that you're not getting a 1:1 digital copy of the audio track are downconverting to stereo or silencing the digital outputs of the source device.
The digital and analog end-runs to copy protection aren't long for the world and the industry will withhold HDMI licensing to insure it.
IOW, ensuring further vacuuming of our wallets as we try to keep up with their paranoia!!
Think of this, 2 years ago HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 weren't there and the AVR mfgs were bragging about their 'new' 4K compatibility. Yet there really wasn't any actual compatibility beyond pass through or upscaling. Then HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2 were brought out obsoleting all those AVRs in one fell swoop since most were not at all capable of being updated.
Not only did that obsolete the AVRs, it also obsoleted all the HDMI switches since everything in the chain has to be compatible. Simply 'passing through' didn't get rid of that requirement though the HDMI switch mfgs thought it would.
While I haven't seen any 'new' specs for that chain, all evidence shows that if they decide somewhere along the line that the current isn't good enough they will have no slightest worry about changing yet again. They've done it for quite some time. Just look at the mess that BluRay was as it matured. Constant changing that early on made the PS3 the only BR player that could keep up quickly, all the rest took more time and in the meantime people were buying/renting BluRay discs that wouldn't play on their new machines.
I'm almost at the point where I'm not convinced that true 4K source material is good enough to put up with this crap. I'm seriously contemplating taking all my source boxes straight to my AVR and let actual 4K source material go punt since so far there is darned little that is good enough that watching an upscaled vs real 4K picture isn't literally the same to the naked eye at normal viewing distances.
Or I could break out the plastic/check/cash and get a new, but lesser AVR that will deal with this directly and hope for no obsoleting change. Note I said 'new but lesser', by that I mean that Harman Kardon is out of the AVR business and I've found no other brand that sounds nearly as good.
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Paranoia would be when you've convinced yourself that something exists that most likely doesn't. Piracy is when you can download faithful digital copies of your creations -- whether your a home producer or a blockbuster movie house.
You'll notice that the new UHD Blu-ray players come with two HDMI ports. That's what the world is going to and if you done your homework, that's what you would have found.
My AVR is 4K upconverting and I knew it going in. I'll probably never use it in such a capacity but having it assured me that I was getting the latest in video processing technology at the time.
Are you buying into the thinking in the industry that they really can stop piracy? I sure don't. Pirates and hackers will keep right on doing it no matter what the mfgs do.
And yeah, I noticed that the UHD BluRay players come with 2 HDMI ports, it would seem to be a very necessary thing to take full advantage of what they offer while being able to keep using some older gear. But that is a solution with limits, those limits being just how many HDMI ports do you have available in your system and how flexible is setting up the AVR. Some are better than others at that.
My HK 3700 allows for the most I've seen. My Denon w/7 HDMI ports had 8 possibilities, the HK has 10 I believe. Not talking ports, talking selecting them and the configurations needed to assign. Of course if you are using say HDMI2 on TV for UHD BluRay and HDMI2 on the AVR for the audio, you probably are going to need a good universal remote or really like playing the a few all the time.
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And yeah, I noticed that the UHD BluRay players come with 2 HDMI ports, it would seem to be a very necessary thing to take full advantage of what they offer while being able to keep using some older gear. But that is a solution with limits, those limits being just how many HDMI ports do you have available in your system and how flexible is setting up the AVR. Some are better than others at that.
My HK 3700 allows for the most I've seen. My Denon w/7 HDMI ports had 8 possibilities, the HK has 10 I believe. Not talking ports, talking selecting them and the configurations needed to assign. Of course if you are using say HDMI2 on TV for UHD BluRay and HDMI2 on the AVR for the audio, you probably are going to need a good universal remote or really like playing the a few all the time.
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