hi, got a few questions from a noob

[turbosat]

If you can drive a car forward and backwards, I'm pretty sure you can master
this satellite-tv stuff ! It's a lot like driving, repetitive actions to get the desired results, and you get better at it the more you practice.

 

[zamar23]

Dee_Ann

For HD Equipment reviews look through this forum thread. Keep in mind, sat industry currently upgrades its technology, so you better pick an HD receiver that looks forward in its features, not requiring upgrade boards right out of the box. More broadcasters are now converting their channels to HD, start using newer transmission standard like DVB-S2, better signal compression like MPEG-4, richer color scheme like 4.2.2, more efficient signal modulation like 8psk, and stronger signal encryption like Nagravision (or Nagra) 3. Find your way to get familiar with all these terms before buying an HD receiver, go through DSS Wiki Glossary for help. Keep in mind also, new HD receivers are becoming like a Media Center: not only they're able to catch signals from sats, but also record shows you missed to a hard drive, receive 2 shows at once (so you can record one and watch another), play and stream over your home network various other file types, not used in sat field, like home video, music or movie you downloaded from the web, and even browse the internet, or autoupdate their firmware over-the-web to stay tuned to changes and bug fixes.

Don't rush with channel subscription either. First try to learn what signals you can get for free given technology advances I mentioned. Remember, this is FTA world you're talking to on this forum. And, look again at your dish preferences. Different frequency bands were allocated to Sat TV signals for various reasons over time. It's not merely about charging you more for a channel choice. Diversity is always preffered in life - isn't it? Hence, your best bet would be to review your own believes: are these C-Band dishes really that ugly? Especially given the number of free HD channels they deliver? A lot of FTA fans would be happy to install these, if allowed by space or landlord. Its a lot reacher FTA world out there with a C-Dish than only with Ku-dish. And if you count money you save on free signals, may be C-Dish, like one of these beauties, installation fee is well justified.

Anyway, learn more, don't rush to buy costly signal meters only a profy needs (may be a small TV would do the trick), look at the most advanced equipment like the receiver, LNBFs, switches, etc. you can get without bricking your wallet, plan your whole sat reception system carefully - may be all you need is a single motorized dish with one LNBF, and concentrate on yoga and improving your views about C-band. Good luck!

 

[Dee_Ann]

Mr *Nice* Neighbor Guy made me a free programming cable for the new meter I'm getting next week. They were like $20 on ebay but he said he could make me one in 5 minutes for free. And he did.

For now I've put everything on hold. I'm doing more reading and studying and learning. I would like to have a "do it all" box that can cover what ever. There's probably a few things I would like to subscribe to but I am not really sure yet what's there.

I noticed that when you narrow the list of free channels down to English only, the majority of them are religious stuff which I have no interest in. That really narrows it down a lot for me.

I noticed that that leaves mostly stations from other cities. They are probably all network clones of one another. Not much opportunity there for variety.



There are a few things that I'm sure I would like to watch so I for sure want to be able to do the free stuff and I might want to subscribe to a few, maybe. As long as they are affordable. I don't think I want to subscribe to the stuff everyone else does, I have a few friends that think Dish or Direct is so great but you have to pay for a whole bunch of channels you'll never watch just to get three or four you really do like. That's dumb. Why can't they let you subscribe to only the channels you want and not pay for ones you don't want? Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

It would be great if it can get the new TV too, the one they are making you switch too. I don't have an antenna for that or any converters yet so soon I won't be able to get those anymore. Haven't watched them in years anyway except when there's a hurricane out there.

I don't really want cable TV, it's like the Dish and Direct, pay for a LOT of stuff you do not want just to get a few decent channels.

So a tuner box that can get any of the satellites and the new TV all in one would be awesome. But the more I read the more lost I get. I feel like Dorothy in the information tornado. All the terms and types are just nuts. Why can't they just make it all the same instead of having 450 kinds of this and that?
It's like, why don't they paint the lanes on the highway all different colors and just stay in the blue lane to get to one place or the yellow lane to get to another place?
Make it simple! I know men love complicated stuff, they love to make complicated road systems and complicated machines. They are making stuff so complicated now you need a PHD to operate it! Come on guys, please, let's work on making things more simple and easy to use! More complicated does NOT equal better! :rant:

Ok, sorry, that was my rant for tonight. Sigh...
I'm taking a chill pill and maybe next week when I get that new finder I can set things up and watch some new things.
I hope..

Thanks again as always guys!

 

[zamar23]

Dee_Ann

On C-band you'll get more HD variety, and you can use the same receiver for C-and-Ku bands, and a special LNB. Unless you use an HD receiver, you can't see any HD channels listed after scanning a sat, so you may think there aren't any HDs coming from space, while there're plenty, scrambled and not, and in various format your receiver is expected to support, if you pick the right one. You also need to learn about Blind Scan, wild feeds, other options out there people use to find and watch channels they like. Also I've heard DN is now running add: "We'll authorize your own equipment, if you subscribe to our package for $10/month for the first 6 months". This is something new and sounds like a good deal, as usually large networks supply their own receivers. If that's correct, your new HD Receiver may need to have a Nagra Card Slot, if you want to subscribe at some point - call DN to clarify this before you buy it. That way you can get most of the subscription and free fan in one box. If you feel overwhelmed and lost, and clear channels choice you found so far looks limited anyway and doesn't match your interests, its never too late to sign up for a small dish HD subscription package all along. FTA is not for everyone.

 

[Dee_Ann]

Well, I now have this neato little box.
It's about the size of a small purse and a whole lot lighter..


I met up with the gentleman that owned it a while ago. He asked me some questions about what sort of TV it is I am interested in then he programmed the box for me.
( I brought the cable my neighbor made for me with me )
He showed me how to program it myself and it's super-duper easy!

He then showed me how to use it and gave me some actual instruction, we went to his backyard and he moved a little satellite dish around so it was all wrong then he had me turn the box on and find a few different satellites with it. It really was not hard, just have to go slow and be patient, make small moves.

He told me congratulations, that I am "good to go" on it. I paid him $100 for the box and off I went back to my house.


So I go to my back yard and play with the thing for awhile. I put one of those little dishes up and played with it, getting the hang of how to do it. It's really not hard. Some are harder to find than others though. The part that gives me trouble though is the "skew" thing. I have no idea which way to turn the things, left or right.

So I put it on the direcway dish and was able to find the satellite at 91 that has FTV.

Then I tried to move it around and find the White Springs one at 129. No such luck.

I noticed that there are TWO satellites at 129. I think.
One looks like a dishnetwork satellite and then the White Springs one, Galaxy 27 I think.

Well, I pushed the birdog buttons to show "BR Dishnet 129" and used a little dish to find it. It popped up FOUND on the meter. So I know which way to point, right at the telephone pole out back. Not that that means anything to you guys..

So I go back to the direcway dish and aim it at the telephone pole too.
I changed the birdog to show what you see on it in the picture attached.
It does not show FOUND.

I know the dish is good because I can use it to watch FTV on the other Galaxy satellite at 97.

I think I'm confused on which way to turn the dish for the skew. Or something.
I don't know why I can find it with one dish but not with another. And the direcway dish is a lot bigger, it should get it better right?

Or am I using the wrong kind of dish for White Springs?

I feel I am sooo close but I'm missing some major something, I guess..

 

[osu1991]

The Dishnetwork satellites are DBS sats and put out much more power than the Ku sats. That is why you can get Dish and Directv using 18in dishes and you need a larger Dish to pick up Ku on 97W or 123w etc..

 

[Dee_Ann]

This is what I am trying to get WSTV 129 with.

Right now it's on the ground because I put another dish in it's place and I was able to find the dishnet 129 satellite. I just can't find the WSTV satellite, at all.


edit..

I sort of found it..

Wow! Talk about rough....

I spent all day trying to find White Springs. And it's sooooo hot out there.... Wish I would have decided to mess with this in the winter time!

So, I had no luck finding it. I took the direcway dish down and put up some frankendish that was left over from some other project the ex never finished.
I put the birdog box on for Dishnet 129 and I was able to find it and it was a pretty strong reading. I made note of where it was pointed at.

I took that one down and put the direcway dish back up. I aimed it at the same place. Nothing. I saw on here where people said they hold up the LNB things by hand in front of the dish when they have trouble finding a satellite.

So I tried that and was able to find the 129 satellite just holding it next to the original one. I figured that meant I was really close. So I put the birdog back on the main dish and tried again to find it. Still nothing.

Finally as a last resort I took the entire LNB thing off of it and put one from a little round dish in it's place, just sort of balanced it there until the box said I was one Dishnet 129. I took that one out and put the original one back in. I put the birdog on it but it shows nothing. It won't say "FOUND"..

I decided to give up for the day from the heat so I put it on the little splitter thing then went back inside. I had no expectations that it would work but I went ahead and tried. And amazingly enough, it now sees White Spings TV.

But it says the signal level is zero and the picture quality is zero.
I can get a picture on the TV but it only plays for a few seconds then gets all blocky looking and stops for a long time. So it's not watchable at all.

I guess this means that I'm really close but still not good enough.
I don't understand though why the birog meter won't tell me anything with the direcway thing on it. There are about 5 or 6 options on the box for Galaxy 27 129 and I tried them all. Any suggestions?

I would love to get this going without having to get someone over to do it for me. I'm trying real hard to become independant again.

Thank you!

 

[turbosat]

DeeAnn, I have that exact Direcway dish, right down to the lnb label! Except yours is cleaner, hehe. But I think it'll work on WSTV, can't recall ever putting it on there but it gets everything else. You mentioned pointing right at a telephone pole , I'm wondering if that might have you somewhat blocked (on that particular satellite, you could move the pole a few feet if you have to)
But that dish should be fine if there's nothing in the line of sight to the sat.
Now, think of skew as reading a newspaper in space. You are standing with your head upright, when facing due south, and the paper is level. Everything EAST of your due south satellite, you gotta kink your head to the left, to be able to read the paper again. And going WEST from your south satellite, its the opposite-SKEW your head to the right and you can see the print clearly again on your imaginary newspaper.

 

[Dee_Ann]

DeeAnn, I have that exact Direcway dish, right down to the lnb label! Except yours is cleaner, hehe. But I think it'll work on WSTV, can't recall ever putting it on there but it gets everything else. You mentioned pointing right at a telephone pole , I'm wondering if that might have you somewhat blocked (on that particular satellite, you could move the pole a few feet if you have to)
But that dish should be fine if there's nothing in the line of sight to the sat.
Now, think of skew as reading a newspaper in space. You are standing with your head upright, when facing due south, and the paper is level. Everything EAST of your due south satellite, you gotta kink your head to the left, to be able to read the paper again. And going WEST from your south satellite, its the opposite-SKEW your head to the right and you can see the print clearly again on your imaginary newspaper.

omg that confuses me!

I went out and messed with it some more and got a little better picture now but it stops and gleeps and gets all blocky a lot. It says the signal is 100% and the quality is 80% BUT it goes on and off, both go to zero a lot, like every few seconds.

It's still not any good but getting better. I may have it all backwards though, that skew stuff is confusing me.

Would it be like this, if I were standing behind the thing looking south, would I twist it clockwise or counter clockwise?

And for the one I have on AMC9 RTN TV, which way would I twist it?

I drew a terrible little picture, is this how I would do it? (forgive me, I am not an artist)

I also am confused as to why the birdog box sees the satellite dishnet 129 but not the White Springs satellite but on the home theater it sees it, sort of.

Thanks again guys! You guys are really sweet..

 

[AcWxRadar]

omg that confuses me!

I went out and messed with it some more and got a little better picture now but it stops and gleeps and gets all blocky a lot. It says the signal is 100% and the quality is 80% BUT it goes on and off, both go to zero a lot, like every few seconds.

It's still not any good but getting better. I may have it all backwards though, that skew stuff is confusing me.

Would it be like this, if I were standing behind the thing looking south, would I twist it clockwise or counter clockwise?

And for the one I have on AMC9 RTN TV, which way would I twist it?

I drew a terrible little picture, is this how I would do it? (forgive me, I am not an artist)

I also am confused as to why the birdog box sees the satellite dishnet 129 but not the White Springs satellite but on the home theater it sees it, sort of.

Thanks again guys! You guys are really sweet..

Dee_Ann,

If you are all referring to the polarization or the "skew" of the LNBF on the dish, I have a nice analogy for you.

You have viewed a rainbow in the sky before of course. If this rainbow streaked east to west, this is a perfect situation. Especially if it is directly south of you.

Just picture this rainbow in the sky. At the very highest point on the rainbow, that is your true due south satellite (provided that this rainbow is close to following the equatorial line).

That doesn't matter so much as this is just an example and the rainbow works great for a visual aid.

I am sure that you know enough about geometry to understand what a tangent line to the arc of the rainbow would look like in the sky. At the very top of this imaginary rainbow, the tangent line would be straight across - level and parallel with a tangent line to the earth's surface with respect to where you are located, correct?

Now picture a tangent line to that rainbow over to the east or to the west of your home. You see that towards the east, that tangent line tilts downward on the left on to the west, it tilts downwards on the right.

The horizontal beam coming from the satellite is aligned in the same manner. The vertical beam is simply 90 degrees in opposition to that.

You have peered into the site of a gun before at some time in your life, maybe not personally, but you have viewed this on TV at some time. You understand that there are two crosshairs in the gunsight.

One crosshair is horizontal and one is vertical. You need to align the horizontal crosshair within the LNBF (just like the horizontal crosshair in a gun sight) with the tangent line to that rainbow (the Clarke Belt) in the sky.

If you were to look through a gun scope at a due south location, the crosshairs would seem straight up and down and straight across.

If you wish to follow the other satellites to the east, you have to twist that gun sight to your left and to the east and thus, rotate the gunsight CCW to follow the tangent of the sat's polarized signal.

Follow satellites to the west and you have to rotate the site CW to remain in alignment.

Obviously, this depends upon what your longitude position really is. You have a pretty good idea of what is directly south of you. At this position, the motor and dish should be straight up and the LNBF should have no skew or polarization rotation.

Any satellite east of that requires you to rotate your motorized dish or your LNBF CCW and all satellites to the west of that southern direction requires the dish or LNBF to rotate CW.

Basically, keeping the gunscope's crosshairs aligned with the "crosshairs" of the transponder in the sky.

This works a lot better if I draw a picture, but I think you will understand, if you think about it a bit.

RADAR

 

[Tron]

Here's another way to remember skew... If the satellite you're trying to hit is east of your true south (your longitude), then skew the dish or LNB east (turn counter-clockwise looking from behind the dish). If the satellite is west of your longitude, skew the dish west (turn it clockwise). Sometimes, depending on the type of dish you're using, the dish itself doesn't skew. In that case, twist the LNB.

Example of skew... New Orleans (where I live) is at 90.1w longitude. If I'm trying to get Galaxy 19 at 97w, I need to skew my LNB or dish west (clockwise from behind the dish), since 97w is west of my location at 90.1w. If I want AMC-9 at 83w, I need to skew east (counter-clockwise from behind the dish), since 83w is east of my location. The farther west or east of your location the satellite is, the more skew is required.

Hope that helped

 

[Dee_Ann]

Thank you guys!

I think I understand now. I had to read it a few times and let it soak in. Some things just confuse me, this was one of them. When you start tilting things around my mind goes tilt.

I'm having a bit of trouble now understanding something different.

As you know, I bought one of those nifty cool birdog meters. The guy showed me how to use it but he showed me on stuff like the subscription satellites. He never worked with the free ones but said it should the same principle on all satellites.

Ok. So I put up a little dish and I can use the meter to find any number of other satellites. It seems to work great. What's more, I can make very fine adjustments to it to get the very best signal possible.

Ok. So, I have no clue how I did it, it had to have been total dumb luck but I pointed one of the two direcway dishes at the AMC satellite 83 and get a pretty good picture on Retro TV. Luck.. Nothing but luck.

So I try to point the other direcway dish and find the satellite with White Springs on it. Galaxy 27 ay 129, if I recall. Can't find it. I spent all day trying to find it.
I ended up giving up when the mosquitos got the better of me.

But when I go inside, I find that the White Springs channel comes in. Barely. It's not usuable but I can tell it's near enough to it to get the signal every once in a while.

So yesterday I tried to find it again. No luck again. The meter will not see it. Period.
So then I put the meter on the dish that is getting AMC Retro TV and set the meter for that satellite. Nothing. It does not see that satellite, at all. I took the meter off and put the cable back on it and go inside and find that it's coming in just fine.

So it seems that the birdog meter won't see the free satellites, just the pay ones.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? I'm totally at a loss now.
I can watch the channels on TV but the meter doesn't see them even though it is set for those satellites. It sees the pay satellites just fine.

Thank you!

 

[Dee_Ann]

What about this one? Would this one work for White Springs?
The direcway dish hasn't worked very well and the birdog meter just refuses to play nice with it. :rant:

Thanks again!

 

[Anole]

yea, but:

That dish 'n LNB should work, but it has an additional complication you maybe don't need right now.
The LNB has two outputs. One for horizontal signals and one for vertical.
The simple way to try it is to plug your receiver/meter into whichever LNB output you need for the test, and do not forget to skew the entire dish.

edit:
I've been away, and got behind on your thread.
Tried to catch up, and skimmed over the latest discussions.
Wanted to hit a few of the high points:

- Ka, Ku, and C-band all output signals from their LNBs in the same range.
So, most any receiver will work on any of the bands.

- Right now, I don't think there is anything FTA on Ka band.
Just some DirecTV subscription programming, and some of the two-way internet services.

- I realize you're a little disappointed, but would still recommend you get running with a stock standard definition FTA receiver to get your feet wet.
Some examples would be:
Coolsat 4000, 5000, or 6000
Fortec Star Mercury II, Dynamic, or Fortune.
Traxis 3500
Visionsat IV-200 (acts as a PVR with the addition of an external USB hard drive)
Pansat 3500, 2800, 2700, etc.
Most can be had new, used, or in trade for some of your more "desirable" toys.

Skew:
As for which way to twist your dish or LNB, I always work from behind the dish, looking over it, over the LNB, and at the sky where the satellite is parked.
(others stand in front of their dishes, with the satellite to their back...)
Many of the look-up and calculation web sites for finding satellites will give you a little picture showing which way to twist the LNB.
eg: the GeoSatFinder site
And if you'll look on the back side of the DirecWay mount, next to the word TOP, you'll find: Polarization
.... and a bunch of degree markings.
So, all you do is twist the dish to the recommended marking (have to know which way), and you're ready to hunt your bird! - :up

edit again:
Okay, one last thought. Concerning HD receivers...
If I had to buy one tomorrow, there is only one choice.
See the AZbox review in our Equipment Review department for more info.
But if you follow my suggestion above and get well versed with a Standard Def receiver first, maybe others will be on the market by then.


---- Okay, I'm done ----

 

[zamar23]

Dee_Ann

Can you adjust your Meter signal sensitivity? May be you need to set it higher for Linear sats.

Also, does it allow to select a weakest signal transponder for a given sat to aim the dish for strongest signal Q on that particular TP?

 

[osu1991]

That Channel Master is a good dish. If you look in picture #2. There is a little mark on the throat of that lnb. That is zero and there is a gauge on the lnb, you loosen those 4 little brass screws and skew the lnb using that little mark on the throat and the gauge that is stamped on the lnb.

 

[hd fan]

The birdog is not the problem, that is a nice piece of equipment , specially the last version 4 (USB Plus). Yours does not even say USB therefore it is version 2.5 but still a nice machine. Version 3 says USB

Dee_Ann . I would suggest you to update the SAT list of the Birdog first and foremost. Go to www.birdog.tv and using the provided USB cable or a similar one for that matter download the latest file for the different SATS up there. Click on News and Downloads , then click on Configure then read, it explais how to do it , it is easy. Basically at the bottom you will see a list of SATS to the left then Highlight every SAT you want on your Birdog (yours might handle only 32 SATS) and click on the double > sign . Once you have reached the 32 Sats limit or less if you prefer then click on Generate and it will ask you to save a .exe file . save it and then run that file and follow instructions.

All that will make sure the Birdog has the proper info for that SAT 129W for the TP for WhiteSpring. Maybe yours already has it but to be safe you should update it. Also when selecting the SATS make sure you select both polarities , for linear SATS it starts with KH or KV for Horiz and Vertical. Circular birds it starts as BR or BL for Right or left polarity.

Keep in mind that White Springs uses a very low Symbol Rate and for SR lower than 4000 it is recommended to move the dish slowly and wait kind of like when using the Receiver as a signal meter but not that slow !! otherwise the Birdog will not find it.

the birdog uses DDSI technology that basically reads the USID data stream coming from the Satellite and helps him identify it. Internet sometimes is a powerfull resource but in this case I am unable to find anything related to how this technology really works. I know the Sats emit also a beacon but have no idea whether it is the same or not...... Finally and now it all makes sense to me (the other day , well the post would be too long, lol). Forget the before mentioned technologies. The Birdog acctually searches for a particular carrier that it has on its list for every bird. That is why it is so important from time to time to update the Sat list as DVB-S carriers on Birds could change their parameters and also make sure you load both polarities. So basically on Galaxy 27 when the KH Galaxy 27 129W is selected it will probably search for the Starband or White Spring Horizontal Carriers , probably the highest powered for every bird. The birdog has like any other receiver a QPSK tuner only and therefore will not identify DigiCipher , or 8PSK or Analog or any other signals. Verion 4 that says USB Plus allows you to create a Custom Carrier and will also control a DiseqC and a 22 Khz Switch. nice piece of equipment , my hats goes off for the British for this one , well I do not even have a hat but you get my point lol.

 

[Dee_Ann]

That dish 'n LNB should work, but it has an additional complication you maybe don't need right now.
The LNB has two outputs. One for horizontal signals and one for vertical.
The simple way to try it is to plug your receiver/meter into whichever LNB output you need for the test, and do not forget to skew the entire dish.

edit:
I've been away, and got behind on your thread.
Tried to catch up, and skimmed over the latest discussions.
Wanted to hit a few of the high points:

- Ka, Ku, and C-band all output signals from their LNBs in the same range.
So, most any receiver will work on any of the bands.

- Right now, I don't think there is anything FTA on Ka band.
Just some DirecTV subscription programming, and some of the two-way internet services.

- I realize you're a little disappointed, but would still recommend you get running with a stock standard definition FTA receiver to get your feet wet.
Some examples would be:
Coolsat 4000, 5000, or 6000
Fortec Star Mercury II, Dynamic, or Fortune.
Traxis 3500
Visionsat IV-200 (acts as a PVR with the addition of an external USB hard drive)
Pansat 3500, 2800, 2700, etc.
Most can be had new, used, or in trade for some of your more "desirable" toys.

Skew:
As for which way to twist your dish or LNB, I always work from behind the dish, looking over it, over the LNB, and at the sky where the satellite is parked.
(others stand in front of their dishes, with the satellite to their back...)
Many of the look-up and calculation web sites for finding satellites will give you a little picture showing which way to twist the LNB.
eg: the GeoSatFinder site
And if you'll look on the back side of the DirecWay mount, next to the word TOP, you'll find: Polarization
.... and a bunch of degree markings.
So, all you do is twist the dish to the recommended marking (have to know which way), and you're ready to hunt your bird! - :up

edit again:
Okay, one last thought. Concerning HD receivers...
If I had to buy one tomorrow, there is only one choice.
See the AZbox review in our Equipment Review department for more info.
But if you follow my suggestion above and get well versed with a Standard Def receiver first, maybe others will be on the market by then.


---- Okay, I'm done ----

OMG!! That last one, the AZbox! I like that! It has Youtube on it too!
Can it record like a Tivo? And what is blind scan? I see everyone all aflutter over blind scan but no one tells what it is. Someone said they would buy one if it had that.

And thank you everyone for the help with the skew stuff. It took a while but I think I have it now. Some times things really confuse the heck out of me, that was one of them. When I try to picture in my mind about how to tilt something I just melt down. But I think I understand now.

Oh, and not saying I would do it, BUT, IF I get someone to put up one of those huge satellite dishes (the kind I hate) would that neato AZbox control it and would it be able to get all the satellites, even the little k ones?

Thanks again!

 

[Dee_Ann]

Dee_Ann

Can you adjust your Meter signal sensitivity? May be you need to set it higher for Linear sats.

Also, does it allow to select a weakest signal transponder for a given sat to aim the dish for strongest signal Q on that particular TP?

I'm not sure. I have just bought a used "Birdog" meter the other day.
I put a picture of it in this post, http://www.satelliteguys.us/1850869-post65.html

I'm still reading and re-reading the instructions for it.

 

[hd fan]

The meter will adjust it self , it will say Auto Range. Do not worry about it , just worry about updating the Sat list on it. Yours will not allow you to set a custom carrier , the new version 4 USB Plus , does. The meter has 2 kinds of signal scale S . Either a regular linear mode of 256 steps or the dBmicroV Scale. you can use either as reference.