Got a C-Band dish...now some questions

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Iceberg said:
another question

Are the digital signals on IA6, G3, IA5 and G4 strong and will a 6 footer pick them up. Or are they like some of the weaker KU birds and you need a bigger dish.


I don't do as much DVB since I went 4dtv, but I do watch G4 every Thursday for my Smallville HD fix. It seems like that signal is a little on the weak side. I record it with my Twinhan card and get quality around 49% - 57%. On my Coolsat, I think its around the low 70's.
 
iammike said:
Ice,

I went through a lot of the same things you're dealing with when I put up my BUD last fall. I could get analog real well, but digital was pretty difficult. That was with an ASC421. My biggest issue was skew, although focal length was a problem too. I found it really difficult to get the skew right with the ASC421. The biggest problem is the difficulty in making very fine skew adjustments. Particularly with an undersized dish like you're using, being off by a few degrees on the skew can make a big difference. I eventually upgraded to a Corotor II plus and a DSR-922 and skew was no longer a problem.
gotcha...so it isnt as easy as aiming and voila...bummer. Well at least I am learning alot :)

In your case, using a dvb receiver, you have a little tougher problem. You might try what I did before I got my 4dtv receiver. I used the VC module in my old Toshiba. Even though you're not subscribed to programming it will still give you a signal strength number on the installation settings screen. You can have a pretty solid analog signal even when your signal strength is pretty low. I've seen VC locks with signal strength as low as 20%, and clear pictures with 60%. On a properly tuned system, I think you'll get most of the analogs at 100%. If you can peak your analogs first, I think you'll find that the DVB stuff is a whole lot easier to get.

Mike
sadly none of the 3 analogs have VCII boxes. 2 never came with one and the 3rd I ripped out when I got the box a year or so ago.

I'll just use very minute movements when I aim. Its weird that I can stand in the front of the dish to make adjustments and not screw up the signal...much :D
 
Iceberg, the best hint I can give you about aiming is this (this assumes you have a positioner arm):

Start with your due south satellite (or as close to it as possible) and get it as best you can. In particular, concentrate on getting the elevation right.

Then go to something like AMC-7 (or as far west as you can get a signal) and adjust it for the best signal you can get WITHOUT touching the elevation. You can loosen the bolts on the pole and move the dish a little east or west (of course you'll have to move the positioner also) but at some point you will find a place where that satellite comes in perfectly by ONLY by moving the dish on the pole and tweaking the positioner arm.

Now you (temporarily) tighten the bolts enough to lock the dish on the pole and go back to your due south satellite and adjust the elevation (only) for peak picture.

Then you go back to the western satellite, loosen the bolts on the pole enough that you can tweak it again for best signal only by turning the dish on the pole and bumping the positioner motor.

The rule is, on the due south satellite, you ONLY adjust the elevation for peak signal. On the westernmost satellite, you ONLY rotate the dish on the pole to achieve peak signal, bumping the positioner motor a little after each movement to peak the signal (if you can visualize in your mind how your dish tracks the arc, this all makes a lot more sense).

Lather, rinse, repeat :) until you can't get it to track the arc any better. This should give you the entire satellite arc if your pole is perfectly vertical.

Note that if you can see a satellite closer to the horizon in the east than in the west, you can substitute "easternmost" for "westernmost" in the above.

Once you have done this, go to any convenient satellite, loosen the support that holds the feedhorn out from the dish (if you can - some dishes have no way to do this) and push the feedhorn in and out a little without rotating it any. Even a half inch in or out can make a pretty big difference in signal strength.

For your skew, if your receiver doesn't have continuous skew scanning (-90 to +90 on many receivers) then pick either polarity, loosen the setscrew in the scaler ring on the feedhorn, and rotate the feedhorn until you get the best signal on that polarity. Be careful to keep the feedhorn the same distance from the dish and pointed in the same direction while you do this. When you find the best spot, use a small marker or pencil to place a mark on the scaler ring and the feedhorn, so you can return to this sport easily. I'd personally do this while looking at your due south satellite, but that's just me. Note that if your feedhorn mount allows rotation of the feedhorn (such as on a "buttonhook" mount), it may be easier to do the skew adjustment there, but you'll still have to loosen the setscrew on the scaler ring for the next step.

While you have the setscrew loosened, you could (after you find the proper rotational position) try sliding the feedhorn in or out of the scaler ring a little. I've seen a little as a quarter inch make a huge difference here, especially if you were unable to change the distance of LNB to dish.

Also try to make sure that the feedhorn is pointed at the exact center of the dish. There are ways to do this that involve pieces of mirrored tape and and a flashlight at night, and ways that involve sticking mirrors on the dish itself. I usually use the "eyeball and hope" method. :) But if you've tried everything else and the signal strength is still low, that would be one place to check.

The one thing you will be amazed at is how small, seemingly insignificant changes (particularly in distance of feedhorn to dish) can get or lose you ten or twenty points in signal strength. It's real easy to see this with a digital receiver.

I know you probably know most of this already, but having had a big old C-band dish since the mid-90's, I had to learn the hard way how to peak it for best signal strength, so I'm trying to give you my accumulated experience in a few paragraphs. It takes time to do it right, particularly when trying to track the arc, but it's well worth the effort.
 
Iceberg, the best hint I can give you about aiming is this (this assumes you have a positioner arm):
Nope. No positioner arm.

Start with your due south satellite (or as close to it as possible) and get it as best you can. In particular, concentrate on getting the elevation right.
Most of my satellites I want are true south (G3, G11, T6, T5, G4, AMC3, etc)

Once you have done this, go to any convenient satellite, loosen the support that holds the feedhorn out from the dish (if you can - some dishes have no way to do this) and push the feedhorn in and out a little without rotating it any. Even a half inch in or out can make a pretty big difference in signal strength.
Yep. There is a screw to move the feedhorn in and out from the scaler rings

For your skew, if your receiver doesn't have continuous skew scanning (-90 to +90 on many receivers) then pick either polarity, loosen the setscrew in the scaler ring on the feedhorn, and rotate the feedhorn until you get the best signal on that polarity. Be careful to keep the feedhorn the same distance from the dish and pointed in the same direction while you do this. When you find the best spot, use a small marker or pencil to place a mark on the scaler ring and the feedhorn, so you can return to this sport easily. I'd personally do this while looking at your due south satellite, but that's just me. Note that if your feedhorn mount allows rotation of the feedhorn (such as on a "buttonhook" mount), it may be easier to do the skew adjustment there, but you'll still have to loosen the setscrew on the scaler ring for the next step.
the skew will be adjusted by loosing the setscrew. That’s the only way to do it.

While you have the setscrew loosened, you could (after you find the proper rotational position) try sliding the feedhorn in or out of the scaler ring a little. I've seen a little as a quarter inch make a huge difference here, especially if you were unable to change the distance of LNB to dish.

Also try to make sure that the feedhorn is pointed at the exact center of the dish. There are ways to do this that involve pieces of mirrored tape and and a flashlight at night, and ways that involve sticking mirrors on the dish itself. I usually use the "eyeball and hope" method. But if you've tried everything else and the signal strength is still low, that would be one place to check.
That’s what I was thinking too. The digital seemed to fluxuate when I moved it around. I’ll have to make sure it is drop dead center. I think the center plate might have been off when I first hooked it up. Have to make sure its center too :D

The one thing you will be amazed at is how small, seemingly insignificant changes (particularly in distance of feedhorn to dish) can get or lose you ten or twenty points in signal strength. It's real easy to see this with a digital receiver.
Good to know. I knew it was a little increment can mean a lot…didn’t know that little bit can mean THAT much :D

I know you probably know most of this already, but having had a big old C-band dish since the mid-90's, I had to learn the hard way how to peak it for best signal strength, so I'm trying to give you my accumulated experience in a few paragraphs. It takes time to do it right, particularly when trying to track the arc, but it's well worth the effort.
Thanks for the info. Really appreciate it. I luck out because IA6 (T6) is my true south and to go from IA6-G4 is only a .3 elevation difference. Heck 91-93-95 are the same elevation and 97 & 87 are off by .1 degrees so it’s close. I did get a couple feeds yesterday on digital but real low signal (between 15-30)
 
I had clouds and a lot of moisture in the air Saturday. Most signals were weak as moisture absorbs and diffuses microwaves. Also , the bigger the dish the narrower the beam it is focusing on. Doesn't take much atmospheric noise to lose signal.
Dale
 
Iceberg,
How easy (or hard) is it to move your dish and adjust the elevation? As I recall, the dish you purchased is on a ground mount. Looking at the dish, how hard do you think it would be to fit it for a polar mount and an actuator arm?
 
First off, 6' is really too small for C band as it isn't 2 degree compliant. This means interference from adjacent satellites will be a problem on many signals. Having said that, you should be able to get a few signals particular on satellites that are at locations in the arc where the spacing between them and their neighboring satellite or at least their neighboring satellite that have C band transponders is greater than 2 degrees. I have one of these dishes myself. Mines fixed on AMC 1. So you might want to try AMC 1 and see what you get. Another satellite to try is AMC 6. You can probably get Nasa on AMC 6 on a small dish like this. You may also be able to get Anik F1. Again the key is to look for satellites that don't have other C band satellites right next to them. If they have another C band sat close by (2 degrees) on one side and not on the other then try aiming slightly to the side where the spacing is wider. This is how I get AMC 1 on mine. Because of the fact that AMC 4 is at 101 just 2 degrees to the east of AMC 1, I aim a bit to the west of where AMC 1 actually is. This helps to slightly minimize the interference from AMC 4 and since anik F1 is 4 degrees west it works out fairly well.

Anyway, a couple things to keep in mind is this dish isn't on a polar mount. So, it will not automatically skew the LNBF when you make azimuth changes. You'll have to manually rotate the LNBF to skew it, or get you a feedhorn with a polar servo. Secondly I don't know about the LNBF you've got but I have a similar model, though I'm not quite sure it's the same as I don't recall the exact model number, but the one I have appears to have been made such that it can be used for circular polarity signals. It has a couple of ridges inside that a dielectric plate can fit into. Anyway, the significants here is that, on mine (again this may not be true for yours) the skew measurement markings appear to be off by about 45 degrees. I don't if this was because it was designed to be used as a circular feed or what but it appears to be wrong. Anyway, I just looked at the orientation of the probes when I installed mine. Just as you I intitially got it wrong but I have it right now. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is don't count on those skew markings being too accurate. Also, you may find that playing with the skew a bit may help the interference problem to a certain extent in some situations. Though I myslef don't use a polar servo on my dishes (even my big birdview which is my main dish), polar servos really are the ideal way to go on BUDs as you can fine tune the skew sometimes to help bring in certain signals better.

had clouds and a lot of moisture in the air Saturday. Most signals were weak as moisture absorbs and diffuses microwaves. Also , the bigger the dish the narrower the beam it is focusing on. Doesn't take much atmospheric noise to lose signal.
Dale

My understanding is we're talking about C band here. If that's the case moisture, and even rain does not have much effect on signal strength or quality. Youd have to have a big time flood to have much noticable effect on C band signal quality or at least that's been my expereince. I get C pretty good on my 8.5' birdview considering it's only an 8.5' dish and I get very good results on Ku with it but I notice some signal drop on Ku when it rains really heavy but none on C. Also about the beamwidth that's dependant on the size of the dish, with relation to the size of the wavelength. Since we're talking about C band here where the wavelength is much larger, this dish being only 6' is going to have a wide beamwidth, probably around 3 or 4 degrees on C. By comparision a 40 x 30 primestar has a beamwidth of 1.8 degrees on Ku. So the problem here is defintely not that the beamwidth of the dish is too narrow.
 
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I would aim for the ASN channel on Anik F1/R 107.5w

VERY strong digital signal in this area! Strongest in the sky I came across!
 
Iceberg, you mentioned a day or two ago that you were expecting a package. I wondered what you were getting. NOW I KNOW! Congrats on the new BUD.

I'll put in my two cents worth of advice now.

Anik gave you some good advice above, but he didn't mention "declination". Setting declination (and elevation) accurately is important if you want to accurately track the satellites outside the center 30% of the arc.

You said you're mainly interested in the sats near the center of the arc. That being the case, setting the declination "right on the money" is not essential. But still, Iceberg being Iceberg, I'm sure you'll want to put it right on the money.

Your BUD might not have a declination scale. If not, then you might have to do whatever you gotta do to sat the declination to the right value. I don't know your lattitude, but ....just looking at the table in the back of my sg2100 manual, if your lattitude were 47 then your declination would be 7.....and your elevation would be43.

My experience was different from Anik's. I exprimented with focal length and polarization (moving the ASC421 in and out and rotating it while I watched a portable TV), and I did not find the focal length and polarization to be highly critical to getting a good digital signal. Maybe that's because I have a 10 foot BUD and not a 6 foot BUD. I don't know.

It's been my experience too that c-band DVB broadcasts require a somewhat stronger signal than analog broadcasts require...in order to get a good picture.
Of course some transponders are stronger than others.

All I've done in this post is tell you stuff you already know, Iceberg. I wish I could have truly helped you. By the way, I installed my ASC421 LNB like you did, and my horizontal and vertical are backwards too. So, I gotta go rotate my LNB 90 degrees tomorow...in order to make my blindscans show the correct polarity (agree with Lyngsat).
 
woops

Iceberg, I was thinking you had a polar mount BUD. But I guess you don't. Sorry for going through all that declination, etc. crap.

Weather doesn't affect C-band at all. Stefan sure knows his stuff.
 
Iceberg, I do have one piece of advice that might help you a little bit: Do not insert the dielectric wafer into the slot in your c-band LNB. The wafer's sole purpose is to enable reception of circularly polarized c-band signals. You're not going to be pointing to any circular c-band sats. The wafer degrades the linear signals somewhat. So by all means, don't use the wafer.

Now, I don't really know the degree to which the wafer degrades linear signals. It might be a significant degree, or it might not.

Maybe somebody who knows can chime in on whether removal of the wafer will significantly increase Iceberg's chances of getting viewable digital broadcasts or not.
 
Iceberg, I do have one piece of advice that might help you a little bit: Do not insert the dielectric wafer into the slot in your c-band LNB.

the wafer? that little piece that goes on the front end of the LNB?
 
so dont use that and picking up digital will be better?

Damn I'm learning a LOT about C-Band
 
That's right, Ice. Removing the dielectric slab will increase the signal strength of linear signals. I dont' know HOW MUCH it will increase it. But it will increase it. And...every little bit helps.
 
OK...no wafer in mine either...the cap I will keep on there

Didnt have time last night to work on the dish...had other stuff going on.
 
Aw shucks...I was hoping you could improve your reception by removing the dielectric insert, Ice. I just assumed that your ASC421 came with one like mine did. My dielectric insert came in a plastic bag that was included in the box that the ASC421 came in. I had to input the insert into the ASC421 myself.

This morning I did an experiment to see how much it affects reception. I inserted the dielectric slab, then came back in the house and moved my dish off target enough to just barely get a discernable picture. I then went back out and removed the dielectric slab, and then came back in to see how much it improved the picture. THE PICTURE WAS PERFECT!

So....the dielectric insert does degrade c-band reception very significantly.

Not that that's gonna help you, Ice......I was just throwing that in to try to be helpful in increasing everybody's general knowledge.
 
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