Galaxy18 & Amc21 On One Dish!(2 Lnb's)

[richyrich]

Brian,

My flame is not burning; it proves the sweetspot is a halo; not just one hole. The shape of the dish matters, because the halo follows the shape of the dish; and if you put multi-lnbfs within the halo (without shadowing each other) at the right angles (many) then you receive all of the satellites signals from EACH SWEETSPOT you have mounted a satellite lnbf to just such switched systems!

And if you make each hole mount to the halo created by a satellite dish mounted static and un-moving in any one position; each hole will receive the middle of the dishes reflection of the "many" satellites its designed KU Band pattern of receptiveness for each satellite it can pick up!

Here, the dishes designed f/d; or depth to width ratio shows you where the halo is; and how many shadows (LNBf's) and angular placements can be filled with waveguides without shadowing each other is in the shape of the halo (where the lnbf's go and put their holes (waveguides) with or without scalars; and receive "full" reflections of each satellite; in KU Band especially!

The picture of a dishes reflective pattern; and the many holes that are addressed using a static dish and multi-lnbf's; is definitively explained at a number of dbs carrier's; as if this "number" of lnbf's are mounted at 8 degree's and flat; or rowed in a line across the dish. At just linear KU Band strengths; the "halo" does not follow a line; it follows a curve (and looks like a globular cluster) in a bubble located at the front of the dish. Each hole aims at the middle of the dish; each hole picks up full quality of the satellite it's "hole" is aiming at! And with 7-15 lnbf's mounted to the halo a static-ly mounted 36" KU Band satellite dish can be constructed into the most obvious truth; the dish enters a very real place and time; where people buy many lnbf linear's'; THE 4ih dimension!

 

[richyrich]

IE; the design of the mini-lnbf (scalar inside) and its ability to mount next to each other which achieve's 2 degree spacing and "both lnbfs" look or receive both satellites without shadowing each other; angles both lnbf's 1 degree to the center; of which both accrue 1 for one degree + 1 for the other degree = 2 degree's. The center of the dish is pinpointed by both lnbf's and they do not shadow each other.

And if you rake 3 or more lnbf's of the Gstar mini-LNBf's; and mount each in a curve within the many satellites a staticly mounted dish really is receiving (using the "halo") they will all come in at full strength. And there will be shadows that must be provided for; but they will only un-shadow with absolute perfect angles and aiming; matching each hole to the "halo"; or area of circles the lnbf's make when mounted...

 

[richyrich]

So, if you mount 7 of the mini's; and you hit the halo with all them Saints; you will receive 7 satellites, each 2 degree's apart; AND ALL 7 will be given halo's; one from each of 7 satellites; you will receive every satellite channel within 14 degree's (7x2) of satellite placement and spacing.

because it was there!

if 1/10 of an inch placement out of bounds of the halo is tried; the lnbf will not work. it is so fine, that placement using too much material causes problems of the halo's blockage, it will not work. Which is why the mini's work so well; they are mini!

 

[richyrich]

Would an eliptical dish be better suited to multi lnb use rather than a standard FTA offset type?

An eliptical dish is designed to reflect the arc of satellites; and focuses the arc using the dish designed to curve along the satellite belt; and can actually aim at each satellite on the arc; all by itself. The problem then is the size of the dish each lnbf uses (or focuses with) to each satellite on the arc. The size of the Parabolic each .lnbf follows the eliptical curve the dish provides; and the lnbfs focus follows the elipse the dish provides. Once again, the shadows of that elipse will get in the way of a 2 degree spaced satellite; but if the dish is big enough, the shadow is overcome with additional signal. In linear Ku Band satellites power structures; the dish might need to be too big and costly to "get used"; so in goes the dbs carriers and they design the elipse with the shape of the dish for 3-5 satellites only; by using a central satellite to be aimed at flat center offset (i think directv/dn today fits this type) so that the other 4 are right on track with the dishes skew and designed "elipticalness".

Using a parabolic of the center (where the halo is) allows for linear satellites to be arrayed onto an only parabolic dish with multi-lnbf's; but the lnbf's are aimed across the parabolic to the center of the dish to receive each direction ; rather than the dish doing it for the lnbf's using a dishes "elipticalness". This sweetspot makes the elipse move across the dish (using lnbf's aimed at the center); following the arc, and the parabolic shape the dish provides from a static direction; allowing multiple sweetspots to be found located in the "halo" of satellites it will or can receive the signal from (size of the parabola); and is limited to the halo's size; which depends on the disges size and direction the parabolic shape can aim at from one position (). The depth of the parabolic is where the limit on the number resides; but the size must be adhered to as the lnbf is aimed and the lnbf's must all fit onto the halo without throwing too big a shadow on each other from the direction it receives them from (where it gets shadows of the other lnbf's). A deeper dish will not have a big enough sweet spot for as many multi-directions; and if a dish is too flat; the dish may receive too wide a path and the lnbf's will shadow each other too much. If you take two sticks and aim the stick with the outer edged angle (where the dish ends); at the horizontal at aim; the stick really points to that outermost satellite that is available by aiming with the center of the dish. But that is still horizontally centered; instead of located within the eliptic pattern that must be aimed at using the middle of the dish to the the lnbf; which ends any gain there at the outside flange of the dish and the offset and angle the last satellite it can receive.

 

[FaT Air]

jorgek said: ?
Would an eliptical dish be better suited to multi lnb use rather than a standard FTA offset type?

I think 'sort of'. You'd have the lnbf 's spacing equivalent to that of a 'normal' offset dish that's the same width as the elliptical. Think the LNBF spacing on an 83e and a 1 meter should be very close to identical. They are the same width. Albeit think you'd have less gain than the 'same width' offset dish. (less effective area)
To visualize what happens to focus as the LNBF is offset from the "prime focus',.
Yes there is a 'prime focus' as an offset dish is a 'slice' of a parabolic curve. And a BUD is a 'whole' 360° parabolic curve.
Focus a point of light on a surface with a magnifying glass. This would be the 'prime focus'. Now angle your magnifying glass 20°, this is now equivalent to an'offset' feed, you'll see what happens.

 

[polgyver]

Richyrich, your posts and descriptions are very elaborate and complex. This could be a mark of a genius. Your ability to span different areas and subjects is impressive. And your language is like poetry, wow! However, for me, quite ordinary fellow, it is not easy to comprehend this richness of information.
There is a saying, that a picture is worth a thousand words.
So, maybe, you could consider posting some pictures or hand-drawn sketches with some arrows and/or symbols with simple words, conveying your ideas and thoughts ?

 

[richyrich]

I can draw too; 2 degree spacing with 2 or more lnbf's can be done; but the lnbf flange gets in the way when you mount them next to each other. And any lnbf that does not aim at the center of the dish receives less signal and quality. The mini-lnbf's gstar has or had; are basically made for this type of use; as they shadow the dish the least of them all

The way to prove a halo with multiple satellites at full strength; is to aim all lnbf's at the center; and use the reflection at the angles you need to aim them using the center of the dish to the multi-sats from as you set the lnbfs to the middle. This is not easy, but what you will find is you can mount an lnbf way out to the side and get full signal and quality with it there if it is "on the halo" (where the satellite signals really are).

One way to prove it is to put the mast in 90 degree's out. This puts an offset lnbf at the horizontal (way off to the side). Of course, you do need to set the lnbf skew because it will be 90 off when doing it this way. And aiming is a chore; as the twist on the pole is now elevation; an the elevation bolt is now azimuth (east/west). When it works this way; it looks funny; but works! What it proves is exactly what i have been trying to say; that in one position; the full signal and quality of MANY SATELLITES (as many lnbf's as you can fit onto the halo) IS REALLY WAITING TO BE USED; scanned, and watched!

I will get a picture of it soon; because you have asked for it; and it takes a while to line the things up (and then lock them down in the exact position as the stuff they make these days does not support the method) and stay on the middle of the dish!

 

[richyrich]

Well, the lnbf follows the dishes halo; and in each position it is stopped by me; it follows a curve; like the arc; positioned in a mirror; (only it smiles)! And my meter; however i program it for moto's work's; squakin' any satellite a moto can get. And the way i figured it out was fixin' all the satellites; experimentin' every day; AND IN MY HAND is the lnbf (and it is always aimed at the middle also) and the 1se met. squacks im on the sat programmed (selected) every time! Now, if i can hold in my hand and am steady enough; i should be able to follow the real arc, right here in live video on all your channels!

The theory stands against the shadows that "" occurs' however on most linear power's todays my arm can be held out of the way.

Really, then send me the 10 mini's (not even shipping) and then i will prove it and you get the pictures (you get to buy the dish) but if it does not I pay you double! Or just buy 10, and i will put them onto your dish; expenses paid minimum. Take a chance it doesn't work; you pay nothing, just like i haven't always talked about the moto. I have only used motor's before.

2 dbs corp. do not know sh*t about what they are doing! America is not in space nasa. where is the pentagon channel.

Even an 8 year old child can be shown how to do it!

Oh, it works! It is also all dbs carrier satellite signal channels!

Do you know why it works? People today know what they are told #2@ !

 

[richyrich]

Have u watched any 007 movies? The big huge dish had motors on the lnb! It also means i will only need 2 buds; and 15 lnbfs. oh, the power runs a little hot! This is why I would tell you is true; I only told the directv guys in the beginning was for a single satellite (with trimmings); and they went for the eliptical dish later. And they only new what i told them.

 

[polgyver]

.[/QUOTE]

I think 'sort of'. You'd have the lnbf 's spacing equivalent to that of a 'normal' offset dish that's the same width as the elliptical. Think the LNBF spacing on an 83e and a 1 meter should be very close to identical. They are the same width. Albeit think you'd have less gain than the 'same width' offset dish. (less effective area)
To visualize what happens to focus as the LNBF is offset from the "prime focus',.
Yes there is a 'prime focus' as an offset dish is a 'slice' of a parabolic curve. And a BUD is a 'whole' 360° parabolic curve.
Focus a point of light on a surface with a magnifying glass. This would be the 'prime focus'. Now angle your magnifying glass 20°, this is now equivalent to an'offset' feed, you'll see what happens.

I am not sure if this explanation is correct. In three-dimensional world, it should be said "paraboloid surface", not parabolic curve.
Prime focus dishes have their vertex at the bottom of their paraboloid shape.
Offset dishes are also part of a paraboloid, obtained by cutting of paraboloid by a geometrical plane. The cutting plane misses the vertex, so the LNBF does not cast a shadow on the reflective surface.
It is easier for dish designers to construct the dies and matrixes (forming the paraboloid surface), when the dish's edges belong to flat plane. (assuming the dish is made of metal sheet). The curve describing the outer edges of a dish is an ellipse.
Therefore, the regular, normal dishes should be called "elliptical".

When dishes are made of plastic, there is more "freedom" for designer.
The curve describing outer edges of a dish, no longer lies on a (flat) plane.
Somehow, these dishes, become known as "elliptical", where, the proper name for them, should be rather "panoramic".
Their LNBF's are designed to "see" their "panoramic" surface, thus the feeds and scalars resemble rather cat's retina, compared to round scalars designed to receive reflection from regular, round (and, truly, elliptical) dishes.

It is unfortunate, that the LNBF property to "see" certain area of dish is called "illumination". It would be OK, if the LNBF sends a radiation to the dish. But, when the LNBF only passively receives radiation from the dish, it should be called - honestly - a "field of sight", or, "angle of sight". Similarly, like photographic cameras could have "wide angle" or, tele-photo lenses.

It also puzzles me the complete lack of the term "coma" in discussions concerning receiving signals from satellites far off-axis.
Example of a lens declined by 20 degree describes rather coma, similar to satellite 20 degree off-axis, not an offset of a dish.
Cheers, polgyver

 

[Joe DC]

You can also calculate the location of the second LNB which I have found is very accurate when used on a prime focus dish.
Horizontal offset (mm) = Focal length(mm) X tan (original azimuth - new azimuth)
Vertical offset (mm) = Focal length(mm) X tan (original elevation - new elevation).
I have seen sin used instead of tan but I think tan is more accurate.

 

[FaT Air]

Example of a lens declined by 20 degree describes rather coma, similar to satellite 20 degree off-axis, not an offset of a dish.

Right. the coma, I couldn't think of the term. So substituted the lens and light source. Yes, that's what happens when you move the feed out of the focus of the dish and attempt to get a satellite to the side of the satellite the dish is aimed at.

 

[polgyver]

You can also calculate the location of the second LNB which I have found is very accurate when used on a prime focus dish.
Horizontal offset (mm) = Focal length(mm) X tan (original azimuth - new azimuth)
Vertical offset (mm) = Focal length(mm) X tan (original elevation - new elevation).
I have seen sin used instead of tan but I think tan is more accurate.

Nice to see mathematical formulas (equations) on the forum.
Stephen Hawking got warning from his publisher, that for each formula in the book, the sales will dwindle by 50 %, so, he did not include any, and his "A Brief History of Time" became huge success.

I tried your formulas with the data assumed : Focal length (of Ariza 120) = 720 mm, azimuth angles (sidecar angles) 5, 10 and 15 degree.
With sinus usage, the sidecar distances were : 62.8 mm, 125 mm, 186 mm (for 5, 10 and 15 degree, respectively).
With tan function, the distances were : 63 mm, 127 mm, 193 mm.
With smaller angles, the differences are negligible.
Cheers, polgyver

 

[polgyver]

Right. the coma, I couldn't think of the term. So substituted the lens and light source. Yes, that's what happens when you move the feed out of the focus of the dish and attempt to get a satellite to the side of the satellite the dish is aimed at.

Very good analogy, using lens and light. (Why I did not think of it, too?)
Took a few pictures with loupe and Sun light.
Tried to think deeper about this analogy, and comparison to prime focus and offset dishes, see photo 4, am I right?

Sorry, was not able to upload my photos, this recent change confused me. There is no option of uploading from computer,
maybe will try later

 

[FaT Air]

Upload a File is just beside Post Reply. Heads Up: There is no 'library' of previous uploads anymore.
Think you could 'visualize' the effects of an offset by covering the bottom half of the lens.(??)

 

[polgyver]

Thanks, FaT Air,

 

[FaT Air]

Exactly what I was 'visioning' I do believe a dish, either prime focus or offset, will 'act the same' with the signals from the satellite. Maybe not as extreme because of the lower wavelength, but the same non the less.
Without moving the lens in picture 4, but 'blacking out' everything outside of the 'offset' ellipse on the lens, the focused spot will be in the same place. It won't move. But the coma 'effect' will remain.

 

[Wescopc]

Without moving the lens in picture 4, but 'blacking out' everything outside of the 'offset' ellipse on the lens, the focused spot will be in the same place. It won't move. But the coma 'effect' will remain.

I tried "blacking out" everything out side of the 'offset' ellipse - no coma - unless I tilted the lens.
Bob

 

[FaT Air]

I tried "blacking out" everything out side of the 'offset' ellipse - no coma - unless I tilted the lens.
Bob

As expected. When aimed directly at source, no coma. When offset - coma.

 

[Wescopc]

Fat Air --- I think we are saying the same thing - but to be clear in my thinking - an offset dishes's LNB (as setup by the dish manufacturer) isn't tilted, however, a dish with two LNB's would be tilted - in relation to the LNB(s) that is/are not mounted within the "sweet spot" of the dish.
Bob