Fox Sues Dish Over Ad-Skipping Auto Hop

[jimdandyvi]

Hopefully everyone that is going to comment on this subject will read the entire Fox complaint and not just post based in what they have read in prior posts.

As I see it Fox is making two major claims (excluding issues with the SlingBox).

First Dish is aiding and abetting viewers in violating Fox's copyrights. While Fox specifically states they have no problems with DVRs and time shifting the viewing of individual programs. If you or I record a show and then FF through commercials that is our doing, but since Dish controls the partition where this programming is stored, Dish is responsible for what happens including the removal of the commercials.

The second argument that Fox advances is that under the contract they have with Fox they don't have the right to offer VOD service since they didn't contract for it and more importantly pay for it. Again since Dish controls the partition where the PTAT is stored in fact Dish is offering a VOD service where you have the ability to watch any prime time show for eight days after broadcast. It is a fine line between what is the function of a DVR and what is VOD. One thing the Fox didn't bring out in their complaint is that Dish downloads movies to subscribers DVR enabled receivers so in fact Dish is using a DVR to provide VOD programming. The lawyers on both sides will have lots to say about that and without having the programming/ retransmision contracts available who knows what the legalese actually currently says.

In any case win or lose in court you can be sure that all new contracts between the networks, network affiliates and Dish will be very specific going forward. New and very specific language will probably state that the network's programming can only be viewed live and in real time and the rights to delay or otherwise rebroadcast their programming and/or if Dish automatically facilitates the recording of shows there will be additional fees and if the commercials must be included and Dish can do nothing to facilitate viewers ability to skip commercials unless Dish is willing to pay a premium price for the shows without commercials.

DVRs of all types were in 44% of all TV homes (March 2011 - Leichtman Research Group ) so the networks now figure is the time to go to war even though 90% of all programming is still watched live.

Long term I just don't see how Dish subscribers are going to come out ahead on this.

 

[dfergie]

The genie is out of the bottle, no one would put up with having to watch network programming live, the networks would lose more people to alternate programming...

 

[loubon]

I'm surprised they didn't sue the guy who invented the remote control (who BTW passed away this week) for modifying the way I turn my TV on and off and change channels.

 

[Slamminc11]

...If you or I record a show and then FF through commercials that is our doing, but since Dish controls the partition where this programming is stored, Dish is responsible for what happens including the removal of the commercials...

okay, you do understand that the commercials aren't removed, right? There are right there where Fox put them and Dish even lets you watch them right where Fox put them in real time or delayed, or never. YOUR CHOICE!\ Dish doesn't remove anything...I just don't get why this is such a hard concept for people to understand.

 

[Whiteyguy]

Why so upset that the networks are not evolving and being left in the dust. Trying to defend the ones that you work for is admirable, but your beating the same points over and over again. Nobody cares.

 

[goaliebob99]

Its not an edit, its a skip. The original program and all commercials are all in tact on the hard drive. When it skips you can rewind and guess what the ads are there.

No different then you hitting the skip button on your remote.

A skip is a nonlinear edit! Anyone who has had a class on a Avid or Final cut! Knows that. It's like inserting chapters on a DVD which in a virtual effect causes a break in time code! By dish inserting their own marks on top of it is changing the content meta data. That is a no no and is a break in copyright!

 

[PokerMunkee]

Woohoo, go DISH!!

 

[JM42]

but your beating the same points over and over again. Nobody cares.

For all the posts he's only made three points:
1: He knows things we don't.
2: The nets can do what they want with the content.
3: The nets are going to stick it to Dish.

It's still early, but so far we have what to my layman's eyes are three non-earth shattering suits. The suits will probably hang on what's in the licensing/retrans agreements, but they do not appear to be a slam-dunk for either side.

The fact we have the suits almost guarantees the nets will not take the nuclear option of pulling the content. If Dish gets past the injunction phase we will have auto-hop for quite a while.

 

[digitalblue]

Good article just posted in AdWeek which goes right to the point I've been mulling all along. Here's a quote ..

Wible suggests that Dish may simply be leveraging the disruptive power of Auto Hop in order to negotiate against rising carriage fees. “While broadcasters will look to increase fees, Dish could now threaten be more aggressive with its ad skipping window by allowing consumers to shift through ads closer to their debut,” he said.

The article is short and to the point. Here it is in it's entirety ..

Networks Sue Dish Net Over Auto Hop, But Service Unlikely to Have Big Impact on Broadcast | Adweek

 

[berck]

A skip is a nonlinear edit! Anyone who has had a class on a Avid or Final cut! Knows that. It's like inserting chapters on a DVD which in a virtual effect causes a break in time code! By dish inserting their own marks on top of it is changing the content meta data. That is a no no and is a break in copyright!

How do you know that they inserted marks in the content? Their are many ways that the ads can be determined without ever affecting any of the original recorded data. The ad areas can be saved in the separate file that goes along with the recorded data. The algorithm may also be looking ahead in the data file for the commercial break, so it can skip it.

I see lots of people here thinking they understand what Dish has done by guessing and saying "They did it this way". The truth of the matter is that unless you programmed it, or know how they really did it, nobody really knows.

 

[satjay]

As mentioned earlier, always an intresting ride with Dish

Love the auto hop feature, just hope no issues come about from this

 

[Barry Erick]

With an honest judiciary, they would be laughed out of court. There's no difference between Dish skipping the commercials for the user, and the user skipping them themselves. Or for that matter, watching them but never using them to make a buying decision.

There certainly is a difference from an automatic skip to one that takes a human to skip and find the end of the commercials with a sjip forward button. With that you see at least parts of commercials. The copyrighted program includes commercials and hopper is violating that copyright.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

How do you know that they inserted marks in the content? Their are many ways that the ads can be determined without ever affecting any of the original recorded data. The ad areas can be saved in the separate file that goes along with the recorded data. The algorithm may also be looking ahead in the data file for the commercial break, so it can skip it.

As far as I know the commercial skip info is indeed stored on a separate file. Again what was original recorded has not been changed or modified in any way. And that file is not downloaded to the until until 1am the next day.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

There certainly is a difference from an automatic skip to one that takes a human to skip and find the end of the commercials with a sjip forward button. With that you see at least parts of commercials. The copyrighted program includes commercials and hopper is violating that copyright.

I am guessing you haven't used AutoHop, as many times you do see the start of the first commercial and the end of the last one.

Again since the programing is 100% untouched and its the user who must enable AutoHop for each show its not a violation of copyright. If DISH edited the show they would be in violation of copyright, but they are not touching it. And that is that combined with the user interaction makes it legal.

 

[Barry Erick]

One of 4 lawsuits... Maybe more in future if they start doing it on other channels. I still think it is crap they can sue over something like this. The consumer already pays Dish network for something that is for free to people with antennas. Which they can set-up there own DVR's with windows media player etc. and skip commercials. My opinion to these broadcasters...get rid of commercials and implement them into the shows themselves. That way there is actually a half hour of tv per show rather then 18-20 minutes. This is the broadcasters own fault for being so pushy and greedy.

And most shows would not be there if there were not commercials. Or, like HBO, you would have to subscribe to each and every one of the channels. Or pay for the one channel left. Commerce is a big thing in the US and no one survives without it.This free notion is bogus.

 

[Barry Erick]

Bingo plus auto hop does not infringe on copyright it's no different then hitting the skip button as the commercials are preserved on the recording. It's not actually taking the ads out.

Wrong.

 

[Barry Erick]

It does not delete the commercials it skips them. Man such poor reporting.

Delete or skip. To the user they may as well be deleted as the consumer won't see them.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

So then Barry how am I wrong. Let's hear your logic on how it all works then.

 

[Jim S.]

A skip is a nonlinear edit! Anyone who has had a class on a Avid or Final cut! Knows that. It's like inserting chapters on a DVD which in a virtual effect causes a break in time code! By dish inserting their own marks on top of it is changing the content meta data. That is a no no and is a break in copyright!

So explain why Dish downsampling and recompressing the video isn't a break in copyright. Or encrypting video that was broadcast ITC.

 

[Barry Erick]

I like this line from FOX.



Last I saw they CHARGE the Satellite And Cable Companies for their FREE OVER THE AIR TELEVISION signals.

I think that the only thing DISH is getting here is free advertising from FOX and NBC. (I am sure DISH say THANKS!)

Because Dish makes money by taking those "free over the air" broadcasts by including them in your package" Cable and satellite pays for that service.