Well thanks to this lawsuit we will probably get a very detailed description of how it all works.
Fox appeals ruling on Dish's AutoHop
- Thread starter Scott Greczkowski
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Well thanks to this lawsuit we will probably get a very detailed description of how it all works.
I can tell you with 100% certainty this is not true at all.
At one time DISH was storing PTAT on its own partition and technically since it was not accessable to the consumer it was technically a VOD service. However DISH changed that a long time ago and now everything is stored on the user partition. And everything is controlable by the user, if a user wants to delete a PTAT recording they can not, when before they could not.
There is no copy being made of the shows with and without commercials. The way it works (in simplied terms) is each night at 1am DISh sends a file much like a XML file which contains metadata which is basically all the times in the show that the Hopper should skip over the video when watching a PTAT show and the user selects they want to use AutoHop on that show.
If yo have ever used AudioHop you will notice it skips forward and because all TV channels have a slight delay the commercial times are approxomate meaning you will sometimes see a few seconds of the commercials. Its not perfect.
No copy is made nor is the origional recording edited. Its all done on the fly.
Again all 100% legal as already established by previous case law.
Its kind of sad reading Fox's complaint as it shows me their legal team has never used a DISH Hopper nor has any clue how it works, they just seem to be throwing out a bunch of things and hope one sticks. I think thats kind of a poor way to practice law.
To be fair their lawsuit was filed before Dish made the changes to move the PTAT from their partition to the user partition. Which is why I agree that FOX will lose the PTAT argument. The AutoHop is much trickier and I could see it going either way.
I have to agree with Scott 100% on this.Does that mean that Dish will prevail?No.The broadcasters have a war chest of money and in the past have won some cases that the majority of customers disagreed with.I just hope instead of being influenced by money a judge will take a logical approach look at all the facts and make an unbiased decision.If that happens I truly believe Dish will finally win the big one.
Scott, if you are saying the DVR does it all from the same program information you would get on a 722 or 612 - but now the the receiver can do all the skipping automatically reading that same file, I would have to agree with you. But it does not seem to be exactly that way. It seems to me Dish is inserting information for the DVR to read, and is it on a separate (copy) of the original, thus the claim of the networks it is VOD? If I am wrong about any information being inserted into the file, it would indeed be much harder for the networks to win. And if there is not a second file the VOD claim would not have a chance.
"DISH also records the prime time lineup itself and has people monitoring to see if the automated Autohopper is correctly finding the beginnings and endings of commercial breaks. If the machine is messing up, the human monitor can try to "correct" the timing. It's a "quality assurance" effort. And it's that copy that the court says might be infringing (and potentially a violation of the contract between the two parties)"
In addition that to me is done from the server side, no matter where the file actually is. And I don't see where a court has said the final result is legal- yet. They said it does not rise to the level of stopping it before a final judgement because real monetary harm will come to allow it waiting for the case to be heard. I do think that is a plus - that so far it's not seen as outright illegal but it just seems to me the more it is delved into the more ammo if a Judge wants to stop it.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ow-fox-lost-nearly-all-important-issues.shtml
"DISH also records the prime time lineup itself and has people monitoring to see if the automated Autohopper is correctly finding the beginnings and endings of commercial breaks. If the machine is messing up, the human monitor can try to "correct" the timing. It's a "quality assurance" effort. And it's that copy that the court says might be infringing (and potentially a violation of the contract between the two parties)"
In addition that to me is done from the server side, no matter where the file actually is. And I don't see where a court has said the final result is legal- yet. They said it does not rise to the level of stopping it before a final judgement because real monetary harm will come to allow it waiting for the case to be heard. I do think that is a plus - that so far it's not seen as outright illegal but it just seems to me the more it is delved into the more ammo if a Judge wants to stop it.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ow-fox-lost-nearly-all-important-issues.shtml
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Tampa, it is not a VOD. The Hopper has the capability to DVR the four networks using one tuner. Then at 1:00 a file of times to skip ahead is inserted. I can easily tell the Hopper not to skip and everything is there. It's like the Ipod setting that you set a song to start at a specific point and end at a specific point. The entire song is there, but the Ipod will skip out of the parts that you don't want to hear. There is no copy made.
Tampa can I tell you a secret (but don't tell anyone). All Dish VIP DVRs have auto skip built in them, however the feature is not enabled.
I will let you in on another secret Directv's genie also has commercial skip but its not enabled yet.
Again There is no editing done to any show by the hopper or dish. The way it was sent is the way it is stored. Period.
Sent from my iPhone using SatelliteGuys
If it's that straight forward good luck to the networks. Just seems there are so many sites talking about another copy and some kind of manipulation. But if my VIP could do the same thing with nothing else done but turning the feature on the Networks would seem to have no leg to stand on.
That is the rub. The networks are claiming that is a second file, is being manipulated, and are calling it a copy. When you make a copy and allow it to be seen later, they are calling that VOD. Sure it's a stretch, but honestly looking at it - not without enough merit to at least be heard by a Judge, which is what I originally responded to - that it has no grounds to even be in court......
But Scott is saying what you just said is wrong - nothing is done to the file. So I'm just not sure what is being done I guess.
NOTHING IS BEING COPIED. NOTHING IS BEING EDITED.
The networks are STUPID since AutoHop is patented... it explains exactly how its done. And it does not require any copying... and really it is as I said it is.
When I talked to someone from DISH off the record they told me they were surprised at how dumb the accusations were, since its a patented technology they could have went and looked at how it works yet instead they just decided to sue over a bunch of bogus items. Again hoping one sticks.
DirecTV's auto skip functions differently then DISH's as it uses the commercial skip feature from ReplayTV. That there looks for changes in the closed captioning data and black frames to know where commercials are.
It will be interesting to see both companies flip their skip funcation on, on all their receivers. When that will happen is anyones guess. But I personally played with it on a 722 and it worked great just as it does on the Hopper system.
Finally, Scott broke the news of the autohop being in the VIP series but not enabled, because I can finally point out my observation that it has been since it was added that I noticed the freeze and Warning 981 messages on the 722k that has been brought up here from time to time. I wonder if that is glitching the software.
I should note the AutoSkip software may or may not be in the VIP software. I do know it was beta tested and was scheduled to be released but since there is no way of telling if it made it to release it may or may not be in there.
Like the origional Hopper, it could be there but sitting dormant.
Like the origional Hopper, it could be there but sitting dormant.
Not necessarily. How they do it isn't really a concern to FOX so there's little to no reason for the method to be disclosed.
Here are patents assigned to Dish/Echostar, sorted from newest to oldest
I see nothing obvious.... Maybe Dish licensed the technology from some other entity ?
Scott, if DISH decides to turn on the auto hop feature on the Vip series ,will they also redo the sat receivers so that you can get all 4 networks on one tuner, like the hopper? IF so they could then advertise that the 722k + ota module ,can record up to 7 shows at a time PTAT: 4 networks + 1 free sat tuner + 2 ota tuners =7 shows that can be recorded at one time. Coincidentally the hopper can also record 7 shows at one time -during primetime- PTAT: 4 networks + 2 free sat tuners + 1 ota tuner = 7.
Why would they make an older receiver equal to their "top of the line" model? Won't happen for business reasons! They'd rather move people to the Hopper and get another 2-year commitment out if them.
FOX, ABC, NBC & CBS need to chill. There were VCR's that the consumer could hit the skip commercial button when recording shows. Yes, I still have that VCR.
