Fox appeals ruling on Dish's AutoHop

[Scott Greczkowski]

[h=1]Fox appeals ruling on Dish's AutoHop[/h][h=2]Net challenges decision on DVR-like commercial skipping service[/h]By Ted Johnson



In an appeal to a federal judge's ruling, Fox Broadcasting says it is not "crying wolf" about the potential disruption to the broadcast business that may come from Dish Network's DVR-like feature that automatically skips commercials.

In a brief filed with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals on Thursday, Fox challenged U.S. District Court Judge Dolly Gee's reasoning and even logic when she rejected their request for a preliminary injunction last month to halt Dish's AutoHop, as well as the service to which it is connected, PrimeTime Anytime. The networks are trying to halt the service, fearing it will undercut their business model, as it allows a consumer to opt to record an entire night's worth of programming on all four networks in one fell swoop and then decide what to watch. AutoHop is a feature that makes the shows available with the commercials cut out.


"This appeal does not challenge VCRs, DVRs or viewers' ability to select and record programs for later viewing ("time shifting")," Fox said in its brief. "Nor does it challenge viewers' ability to fast-forward through commercials when they watch programs they selected and recorded with DVRs. What it does challenge is Dish's wholesale copying of Fox's copyrighted programming in order to offer its subscribers an on-demand library of commercial-free programs, in violation of copyright law and its contractual obligations."

Read the rest at http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118063685

 

[Teehar]

What it does challenge is Dish's wholesale copying of Fox's copyrighted programming in order to offer its subscribers an on-demand library of commercial-free programs

Again to Fox...The content is not commercial free!Fox would really hate for me to be the judge!

 

[mike123abc]

Again to Fox...The content is not commercial free!Fox would really hate for me to be the judge!

The argument comes down to whether or not cutting of commercials by a third party (Dish network) for a viewer falls under fair use or not. I believe the networks have a fairly strong case against AutoHop. It is hard to argue that the user is skipping the commercials on their own when they only have to say yes one time to skip all the commercials.

I believe PTAT as changed now (not as when originally released completely automatic recording of all networks) is a weak case for the networks.

 

[Yespage]

Consumers already have the ability to ignore commercials on their own. They can walk out of the room during a break, put the TV on mute... and that is without using a DVR or VCR (back in the day). Autohop doesn't strip the commercials out, it just allows a person another, more streamlined, method of not having to watch commercials.

If someone wants to watch something live, they can't skip commercials.

 

[Teehar]

Consumers already have the ability to ignore commercials on their own. They can walk out of the room during a break, put the TV on mute... and that is without using a DVR or VCR (back in the day). Autohop doesn't strip the commercials out, it just allows a person another, more streamlined, method of not having to watch commercials.

If someone wants to watch something live, they can't skip commercials.

Exactly.

 

[mike123abc]

Consumers already have the ability to ignore commercials on their own. They can walk out of the room during a break, put the TV on mute... and that is without using a DVR or VCR (back in the day). Autohop doesn't strip the commercials out, it just allows a person another, more streamlined, method of not having to watch commercials.

If someone wants to watch something live, they can't skip commercials.

Yes and as an individual the consumer makes that decision for every commercial. This is having Dish do it for you. The question is, is it legal for Dish to skip the commercials for you or not. Dish is selling a service, but is skipping commercials a legal service for Dish to sell.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

Dish is not doing it for you though. Its not automatic, you need to say you want to use it for each show.

Its the consumer chosing to hit the button just as they do to choose to hit the 30 second skip button.

 

[mike123abc]

Dish is not doing it for you though. Its not automatic, you need to say you want to use it for each show.

Its the consumer chosing to hit the button just as they do to choose to hit the 30 second skip button.

It is a big difference. Selecting up front to have automatic commercial skipping at the start of a show is very different from having to be aware of when commercials start and manually skipping them. The networks are essentially claiming that Dish is offering 2 versions of their programming. One with commercials (as broadcast) and one without commercials and then giving the consumer the choice of which one to watch. The networks are claiming that Dish is not authorized to offer a commercial free version of their programming.

 

[Scott Greczkowski]

But the big point here is DISH is not alerting the recording in any way. In fact you can see some of the commercials as its skipping them.

Without altering the recording and by the user having to engage the auto skip feature is what makes it legal, this was already decided years ago in the Replay TV case.

 

[Jaspear]

"This appeal does not challenge VCRs, DVRs or viewers' ability to select and record programs for later viewing ("time shifting")," Fox said in its brief. "Nor does it challenge viewers' ability to fast-forward through commercials when they watch programs they selected and recorded with DVRs. What it does challenge is Dish's wholesale copying of Fox's copyrighted programming in order to offer its subscribers an on-demand library of commercial-free programs, in violation of copyright law and its contractual obligations."

No, it does not. I (and other Hopper subscribers) decide when to copy Fox's programming to create a library of programs that I then choose to watch, or not, with or without commercials. Every step of the way, it's my decision. That DISH made it more convenient for me to do so, is immaterial.

 

[Teehar]

The networks are claiming that Dish is not authorized to offer a commercial free version of their programming.

Then the claim has no or very little merit.Why?Because the commercials are still there in their entirety.Dish doesn't remove or alter them,they just give the user the ability to skip them.Big difference.If the user decides they can watch every commercial.

 

[jevans64]

Fox, and the other networks, won't be happy unless we have to push a button 100 times to skip a single commercial. They'll just turn around and start adding more invasive advertising IN the program itself or annoy us even more with animated bugs/graphics that take up 1/2 of the TV viewing area during a program.

 

[osu1991]

I'm sure Fox wouldn't be complaining if Dish enabled PTAT but it didn't skip the commercials. It still would be compiling a library of an entire nights worth of Fox programming at once. This is just Fox wanting to stick it to Dish and make another dollar at the same off of the viewing public.

 

[Aidan8et]

Consumers already have the ability to ignore commercials on their own. They can walk out of the room during a break, put the TV on mute... and that is without using a DVR or VCR (back in the day). Autohop doesn't strip the commercials out, it just allows a person another, more streamlined, method of not having to watch commercials.

If someone wants to watch something live, they can't skip commercials.

The thing with PTATs autohop is that the viewer only selects once and then Dish scans the show for commercials automatically. Fox & the networks are up in arms about the "set & forget" style. The intial freak out on PTAT had more to do with this as well, basically turning the big 4 into a Dish supplied Hulu service (on demand shows w short commercial breaks). I can understand it from both sides really. We viewers are upset about the increases in commercials (overlapping shows for more commercials? Really? D*bag move networks). Meanwhile the networks are worried the ads & their included funds will begin to dry up (why pay for a time slot if the viewers are just going to skip commercials anyway?)

Sent from my SCH-I800 using SatelliteGuys

 

[Jim S.]

Since Fox is explicitly stating that Dish is providing an altered version of their programming, and Dish is in fact doing no such thing, I don't see how this case can even be admitted to court. I don't know which is more disturbing -- that Fox is making an obviously false claim, or that multiple layers of our legal system are incapable of seeing immediately that it's a false claim. If I were in charge, everyone involved would be dismissed for mental infirmity.

 

[cave1376]

Next thing you know, the government will file a lawsuit against the car companies because the car companies make and sell cars that can break the speed limit.

 

[thechaz05]

Next thing you know, the government will file a lawsuit against the car companies because the car companies make and sell cars that can break the speed limit.

Shhhhh, don't give them any ideas.

Sent from my phone using SatelliteGuys sweet app.

 

[Tampa8]

Since Fox is explicitly stating that Dish is providing an altered version of their programming, and Dish is in fact doing no such thing, I don't see how this case can even be admitted to court. I don't know which is more disturbing -- that Fox is making an obviously false claim, or that multiple layers of our legal system are incapable of seeing immediately that it's a false claim. If I were in charge, everyone involved would be dismissed for mental infirmity.

Hate to break this to you, but Dish IS doing exactly that. Take time and read the complete original complaint. The question will be is that enough of an alteration to make a difference. Think about it - without a Hoppa you get the show as presented by the network, your choice of speeding past or jumping past each set of commercials. With the Hoppa and PTAT enabled you get a show at a later time, altered to have taken out content, in this case all commercials, and that action can be chosen one time by the consumer. Dish is going to argue that is no different than what is done now, just a different way. Dish also will argue this helps parents take out what the parent feels is inappropriate commercials.
Read below and other reports, there really is no question Dish is making a copy or altering. The question is does it materially infringe on copyright laws.

"However, The Hollywood Reporter has learned that a preliminary injunction has been refused. Further, the ruling might not be a complete victory for Dish because the judge is inclined to accept certain copyright infringement theories."

To break it down even more, Fox is going to say the change is that the DVR functions are now being done on the "Server side" (At Dish) rather than as it is now, at the "Receiver" side or consumer side.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/judge-denies-injunction-dish-autohop-387458

 

[The Fat Man]

You and I usually agree Tampa, but your logic is flawed in one area. It's autohop that edits out content. Not PTAT. I can watch a show from PTAT and not enable autohop. PTAT is just a means of doing what a DVR already does. I could record two networks entire lineup on any cable or satellite DVR. I could do all four with a 722k that has the OTA module connected. FOX will face a tough case trying to shut down PTAT. They will have a stronger case shutting down autohop.

 

[Hall]

To break it down even more, Fox is going to say the change is that the DVR functions are now being done on the "Server side" (At Dish) rather than as it is now, at the "Receiver" side or consumer side.

There's next to nothing done "server side" here. The shows are recorded on the customer's DVR. They are stored on the customer's DVR. How / where Autohop takes place has never been disclosed, has it ? No one knows if they're using existing markers that are by design there for commercial insertion, if there are employees of Dish who playback the PTAT-recorded shows and add markers at the start/end of commercials, etc.