I would say they doing that for better revenue - delay will position the device on market with less coupons in hands.
First Look: Dish Network's DTVPal Digital Converter
- Thread starter Scott Greczkowski
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Not sure I understand the logic - what's the difference between $40 from the government and $40 out of my pocket (other than processing time)?
fuuny man. you tink da gobment goona pony up dem dollas
sorry, my southern accent is starting to kick in.
sorry, my southern accent is starting to kick in.
Trick question. It's all out of your pocket. The government picks your pocket, then gives it back to you in the form of some largess or another.
But higher sales volume because it's only $20 out of my pocket, instead of $60 (not counting the $100 in tax money I'm paying to administrate the darn program - thanks for that dose of reality, Tyralak)
I just got this from a "business" concerning another box.
So problems not just with dishpal. I had ordered the Apex box for analog pas thru and s-video connection since I was pretty sure dishpal wouldn't be in time for expiration date. But this one also missed the deadline on my coupon.
Maybe these companies are trying to help us out- maybe its just an avenue to get whatever business they can- as consumers we have pressured many of them to take pre-orders because of expiration dates.
Dear Valued Customer.
You have ordered a converter box from our company. Our agreement with was to receive your coupon as deposit for a converter box, and not to charge you for the balance owed until the box was to be delivered. We kept our word, your credit card has not been charged.
Unfortunately the manufacturers have not been able to deliver the units in a timely manner. We have a commitment to you and the government to resolve this issue so that you are not penalized.
We are now canceling your order and notifying the government of this situation so they can remedy your coupon situation. We expect that you will hear directly from the NTIA, which governs the TV Converter Box Coupon Program.
As you may know, this has been a problem for many retailers awaiting the arrival of boxes with the pass-thru features such as the Digital Stream 7700 and the Apex DT250.
We are extrememly sorry for the delay and we would hope that you would reconsider us when converters arrive.
Thank you for your patronage.
So problems not just with dishpal. I had ordered the Apex box for analog pas thru and s-video connection since I was pretty sure dishpal wouldn't be in time for expiration date. But this one also missed the deadline on my coupon.
Maybe these companies are trying to help us out- maybe its just an avenue to get whatever business they can- as consumers we have pressured many of them to take pre-orders because of expiration dates.
Dear Valued Customer.
You have ordered a converter box from our company. Our agreement with was to receive your coupon as deposit for a converter box, and not to charge you for the balance owed until the box was to be delivered. We kept our word, your credit card has not been charged.
Unfortunately the manufacturers have not been able to deliver the units in a timely manner. We have a commitment to you and the government to resolve this issue so that you are not penalized.
We are now canceling your order and notifying the government of this situation so they can remedy your coupon situation. We expect that you will hear directly from the NTIA, which governs the TV Converter Box Coupon Program.
As you may know, this has been a problem for many retailers awaiting the arrival of boxes with the pass-thru features such as the Digital Stream 7700 and the Apex DT250.
We are extrememly sorry for the delay and we would hope that you would reconsider us when converters arrive.
Thank you for your patronage.
I thought it paid off to be slow on applying for my converter box coupons.
However mine are only good till mid July. now that the DTVPAL I've held out for may not even make that, I to may be forced to buy something else.
So, I'm glad I found this post, now I know that If worst comes to worst I can run down to Radio Shack and buy myself a little time at the last minute before mine expire..
However mine are only good till mid July. now that the DTVPAL I've held out for may not even make that, I to may be forced to buy something else.
So, I'm glad I found this post, now I know that If worst comes to worst I can run down to Radio Shack and buy myself a little time at the last minute before mine expire..
More TVGOS thoughts
After reading all the posts here on the subject I have to side with the folks that think the DTVPal will allow analog TVGOS devices to download their needed program listings. If all the DTVPal did for TVGOS devices was allow the latter to change channels on the former via the G-link cable then I can't figure out the need for the substitute zip codes or any zip code for that matter. The zip code is used by the TVGOS device to tell it which set of listings it's supposed to extract from the plethora of listings it's pulling out of the TV signal. The substitute zip codes are not valid zip codes and thus the TVGOS data being sent in the TV signal will not contain any data for them. The substitute zip codes would thus only have a reason for being if the DTVPal was itself creating the TVGOS data for those codes. If the substitutes were simply to prevent the TVGOS from getting data then there would be no need for 3 pages of them. A single bogus zip code would work for the entire country in this case.
My guess at how this works is the DTVPal takes the TVGOS data from the digital signal and repackages it in the analog VBI. As others have pointed out it probably isn't just repackaging the available PSIP data as it wouldn't take 6 days to do this nor would you ever get 8 days of data. This can't be a simple conversion of the DVS-706 data, however. As others have pointed out, most (all?) analog TVGOS devices wont understand the digital channel format so there has to be a mapping of channels by the DTVPal. In addition, the TVGOS device has to be told it's hooked to a cable box for the G-link to work. When you tell it this, however, it will only extract cable listings. For it to extract OTA listings you would have had to tell it it was hooked up to an antenna. Thus, I think the DTVPal must take the digital TVGOS data, delete the cable data, replace the channel numbers of the OTA data with something the TVGOS device can deal with, "rename" the OTA data such that the TVGOS device will think it's cable data, map the actual zip codes to the substitute zip codes then inject the results into the VBI.
I'm still a little confused why this couldn't be done without the substitute zip codes, however. The only reason for them I can see is there could be a conflict in one rare instance. Until 2/17/2009 if you switched the DTVPal to analog pass through before you went to bed and had your TVGOS device tuned to a channel that was transmitting analog TVGOS data it would update the guide with a bunch of cable data that you couldn't receive. By using substitute zip codes the TVGOS device would never see the unwanted data.
After reading all the posts here on the subject I have to side with the folks that think the DTVPal will allow analog TVGOS devices to download their needed program listings. If all the DTVPal did for TVGOS devices was allow the latter to change channels on the former via the G-link cable then I can't figure out the need for the substitute zip codes or any zip code for that matter. The zip code is used by the TVGOS device to tell it which set of listings it's supposed to extract from the plethora of listings it's pulling out of the TV signal. The substitute zip codes are not valid zip codes and thus the TVGOS data being sent in the TV signal will not contain any data for them. The substitute zip codes would thus only have a reason for being if the DTVPal was itself creating the TVGOS data for those codes. If the substitutes were simply to prevent the TVGOS from getting data then there would be no need for 3 pages of them. A single bogus zip code would work for the entire country in this case.
My guess at how this works is the DTVPal takes the TVGOS data from the digital signal and repackages it in the analog VBI. As others have pointed out it probably isn't just repackaging the available PSIP data as it wouldn't take 6 days to do this nor would you ever get 8 days of data. This can't be a simple conversion of the DVS-706 data, however. As others have pointed out, most (all?) analog TVGOS devices wont understand the digital channel format so there has to be a mapping of channels by the DTVPal. In addition, the TVGOS device has to be told it's hooked to a cable box for the G-link to work. When you tell it this, however, it will only extract cable listings. For it to extract OTA listings you would have had to tell it it was hooked up to an antenna. Thus, I think the DTVPal must take the digital TVGOS data, delete the cable data, replace the channel numbers of the OTA data with something the TVGOS device can deal with, "rename" the OTA data such that the TVGOS device will think it's cable data, map the actual zip codes to the substitute zip codes then inject the results into the VBI.
I'm still a little confused why this couldn't be done without the substitute zip codes, however. The only reason for them I can see is there could be a conflict in one rare instance. Until 2/17/2009 if you switched the DTVPal to analog pass through before you went to bed and had your TVGOS device tuned to a channel that was transmitting analog TVGOS data it would update the guide with a bunch of cable data that you couldn't receive. By using substitute zip codes the TVGOS device would never see the unwanted data.
i have been told that the Pal itself, does nothing with TVGOS. No repackage, no conversion. All it does is get controlled by a G-Link device.
Thanks for the response. I've read that here as well. I'm just not sure I believe it, mainly because of the instructions in the DTVPal's owner's manual telling you to enter a special zip code. I can't imagine they would go to the trouble to add that to the manual without a reason. If no TVGOS data makes it across the DTVPal this zip is useless to the TVGOS device and there's no point in entering it. If you bypass the DTVPal and plug the antenna directly into the TVGOS device it would still be worthless since you've given the unit an invalid zip code. Again, what's the point in entering it? The TVGOS device can't send the zip across the G-link to the DTVPal for some unknown use as the TVGOS device's firmware was surely never designed to send zip codes to cable boxes. It may be that this just doesn't work but I'm curious what the zip could be for.
philstuart, I agree that if there is no PSIP to Analog TVGuide conversion then the zip code and G-link are worthless.
This would mean the DTVPal would be like a VCR with the Analog TVGuide.
The Analog TVGuide would need to get the information to populate the Analog TVGuide from somewhere to so the Guide, G-Link and controlled devices would be usable.
Any box can be controlled by a IR-Blaster if you know the remote codes.
G-link is different as it is tied to the Analog TVGuide and it sends the remote codes to the two connected devices from what you select in the TVGuide grid.
I still stand by my first assumption that the DTVPal converts PSIP to analog TVGuide and may not fill the full 7-days but will have something.
The Analog TVGuide device will receive the converted data to populate it's grid and will send both the DTVPal and connected recording device the appropriate codes.
The new zip code is needed to send the correct digital sub-code to the DTVPal because Digital channels are different then Analog.
The old analog code 7 will not work because in digital it is 7-1
Not only that but there are sub-channels that need the appropriate code not found in the Analog System.
This would mean the DTVPal would be like a VCR with the Analog TVGuide.
The Analog TVGuide would need to get the information to populate the Analog TVGuide from somewhere to so the Guide, G-Link and controlled devices would be usable.
Any box can be controlled by a IR-Blaster if you know the remote codes.
G-link is different as it is tied to the Analog TVGuide and it sends the remote codes to the two connected devices from what you select in the TVGuide grid.
I still stand by my first assumption that the DTVPal converts PSIP to analog TVGuide and may not fill the full 7-days but will have something.
The Analog TVGuide device will receive the converted data to populate it's grid and will send both the DTVPal and connected recording device the appropriate codes.
The new zip code is needed to send the correct digital sub-code to the DTVPal because Digital channels are different then Analog.
The old analog code 7 will not work because in digital it is 7-1
Not only that but there are sub-channels that need the appropriate code not found in the Analog System.
DTVPal MUST provide analog TVGOS, really!
1) DTVPal would have to be connected to the "Guide device" via an RF connection, not via the RCA composite video and L/R audio jacks (which the manual says you can use).
2) When using analog pass thru on the DTVPal, you'd also have to take your "Guide device" out of the Cable Box mode it has to be in for operation with the DTVPal. Once you did this, it would change channels on its own, rather than over the G-link to the DTVPal.
3) Otherwise, if the Guide device was still in Cable Box mode, it would only be looking at channel 3 or 4 of the RF input, and if the local channel with analog TVGOS data was anything other than 3 or 4, you'd simply get no Guide data when the DTVPal was stuck in analog pass through mode or turned off.
So, while you're probably right about the risk of getting "too much" analog Guide data (i.e., cable channels) in those special circumstances, IF not using the special zip code, the same risk might exist in normal operation... IF the DTVPal converts all the digital TVGOS data to analog. If so, you could STILL get "too much" data if not using the special zip code. On the other hand, if the DTVPal is only converting PSIP to analog TVGOS, then the zip code is not needed to "limit" the data, but it may be needed only to do its end of the special channel mapping that eliminates the need for a dot or dash in sending OTA subchannel numbers to the DTVPal using Scientific Atlanta remote control codes.
I still believe there is probably digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS conversion going on.
If I'm not mistaken about how it works, I think that any "Guide device" zip code is used to determine which channels are available, and on what channel numbers, on the local "cable system." And therefore the "Guide device" gets the local cable system's channel numbering, and includes or excludes channels in its listing grid, based on the channel mapping that is tied to the zipcode. So, these "special" zip codes are for an "imaginary cable system" that carries only the local broadcast channels, and, in fact, includes some subchannels that the "real" local cable system may NOT carry.
In any case, I agree with everything else philstewart said, and I still stand by what I said in my oldest post:
People who say the DTVPal isn't supplying data to the Guide device are ignoring the proof in the manual pages we've seen.
If the DTVPal didn't supply the analog Guide data, hooking it up one of the ways the manual says you can (via the RCA composite [and L/R audio] inputs to the "Guide device") would cause the Guide device to NOT GET ANY DATA. And you can't say that the "Guide device" is still gets its data from the Guide device's RF input, because the manual says you must leave the DTVPal ON to get the data. If the Guide device RF input is connected directly to antenna or cable, turning the DTVPal on or off could NOT affect that. And you can't count on getting data from an RF signal passing through the DTVPal; as already stated, the manual says you can connect the DTVPal to the Guide device via the composite video and L/R audio inputs OR the RF input; you do not have to connect both. (Besides, I don't believe the Guide device is smart enough to get its pictures and sound from one input, e.g., composite, and its data from a different input, e.g. RF input; it gets both from the one input it is set to use.) Remember, the DTVPal is hooked up to the Guide device as if it were a cable box, and the Guide device gets its data as it would get it from a cable box.
The Guide device must be able to get its data through the RCA composite inputs (when the DTVPal is connected that way; OR it can get its data through the RF input if the DTVPal is hooked up via RF). The DTVPal presumably only tunes digital channels and only outputs an analog channel 3 or 4 and/or analog composite video, so there's no point in connecting it to the Guide device's inputs unless it can provide the analog data needed by the Guide device.
(Anyone interested can click any of the links to previous posts above to see a more detailed discussion of this.)
You may have something there, and it might be part of the "role in limiting the Guide listings to OTA channels" that I was wondering about in this old post:
However, now that I've thought about it, it seems your analog pass-through idea would apply under very rare circumstances, because:
1) DTVPal would have to be connected to the "Guide device" via an RF connection, not via the RCA composite video and L/R audio jacks (which the manual says you can use).
2) When using analog pass thru on the DTVPal, you'd also have to take your "Guide device" out of the Cable Box mode it has to be in for operation with the DTVPal. Once you did this, it would change channels on its own, rather than over the G-link to the DTVPal.
3) Otherwise, if the Guide device was still in Cable Box mode, it would only be looking at channel 3 or 4 of the RF input, and if the local channel with analog TVGOS data was anything other than 3 or 4, you'd simply get no Guide data when the DTVPal was stuck in analog pass through mode or turned off.
So, while you're probably right about the risk of getting "too much" analog Guide data (i.e., cable channels) in those special circumstances, IF not using the special zip code, the same risk might exist in normal operation... IF the DTVPal converts all the digital TVGOS data to analog. If so, you could STILL get "too much" data if not using the special zip code. On the other hand, if the DTVPal is only converting PSIP to analog TVGOS, then the zip code is not needed to "limit" the data, but it may be needed only to do its end of the special channel mapping that eliminates the need for a dot or dash in sending OTA subchannel numbers to the DTVPal using Scientific Atlanta remote control codes.
I still believe there is probably digital TVGOS to analog TVGOS conversion going on.
If I'm not mistaken about how it works, I think that any "Guide device" zip code is used to determine which channels are available, and on what channel numbers, on the local "cable system." And therefore the "Guide device" gets the local cable system's channel numbering, and includes or excludes channels in its listing grid, based on the channel mapping that is tied to the zipcode. So, these "special" zip codes are for an "imaginary cable system" that carries only the local broadcast channels, and, in fact, includes some subchannels that the "real" local cable system may NOT carry.
In any case, I agree with everything else philstewart said, and I still stand by what I said in my oldest post:
Just to recap:
People who say the DTVPal isn't supplying data to the Guide device are ignoring the proof in the manual pages we've seen.
If the DTVPal didn't supply the analog Guide data, hooking it up one of the ways the manual says you can (via the RCA composite [and L/R audio] inputs to the "Guide device") would cause the Guide device to NOT GET ANY DATA. And you can't say that the "Guide device" is still gets its data from the Guide device's RF input, because the manual says you must leave the DTVPal ON to get the data. If the Guide device RF input is connected directly to antenna or cable, turning the DTVPal on or off could NOT affect that. And you can't count on getting data from an RF signal passing through the DTVPal; as already stated, the manual says you can connect the DTVPal to the Guide device via the composite video and L/R audio inputs OR the RF input; you do not have to connect both. (Besides, I don't believe the Guide device is smart enough to get its pictures and sound from one input, e.g., composite, and its data from a different input, e.g. RF input; it gets both from the one input it is set to use.) Remember, the DTVPal is hooked up to the Guide device as if it were a cable box, and the Guide device gets its data as it would get it from a cable box.
The Guide device must be able to get its data through the RCA composite inputs (when the DTVPal is connected that way; OR it can get its data through the RF input if the DTVPal is hooked up via RF). The DTVPal presumably only tunes digital channels and only outputs an analog channel 3 or 4 and/or analog composite video, so there's no point in connecting it to the Guide device's inputs unless it can provide the analog data needed by the Guide device.
(Anyone interested can click any of the links to previous posts above to see a more detailed discussion of this.)
pabeader: International Man of Mystery
pabeader's recent comments here are more interesting when you know that Malouff thinks pabeader was a beta-tester of the DTVPal ( link ).
For example:
If I want to trust what he was TOLD (not anything he actually TESTED), I'd have to conclude that this information was originally more like "The DTVPal does nothing with digital TVGOS, no repackage, no conversion. The DTVPal acts as a channel-changing slave to the Guide device, and is controlled by the Guide device over the G-Link."
This doesn't change the fact that the Guide device has to receive some data to display in its Guide grid, and that somehow has to come from the DTVPal. (Data might possibly be on some "secret" channel with a blank picture and no sound, which carries PSIP data in a format that the Guide device can interpret like analog TVGOS data, although I don't know how the Guide device would be tricked into not including the "secret" channel as a row in its Guide grid, since the Guide device would have to know of the "secret" channel to tune to it and collect the data. Maybe another mysterious "power" of the special "substitute zip codes"?)
===== end TVGOS stuff ===== begin TR-40 speculation =====
pabeader also said recently at avsforum "notice i don't ever mention the 40? wonder if there is a reason for that..." ( link ). I find it hard to tell if that means "I'm beta-testing the $40 box and can't talk about it" or "There's no such product coming; if it were going to be available by August, I would be testing it by now."
Do you recall that after I speculated here that there may never be a "August $40 box" built in significant quantities, only a repriced DTVPal, he said that was "interesting"? Anole then said something like "no, not interesting, it's a joke!" And pabeader retorted, "no, interesting."
That leaves me wondering the same thing: Does it mean "You're WRONG -- I'm beta-testing the $40 box and can't talk about it" or "You're RIGHT -- There's no such product coming; if it were going to be available by August, I would be testing it by now."
And now, a musical selection that a select few may appreciate:
It's a box that lives a life of danger
The product roll-out keeps on getting stranger
With every move DISH makes
Another chance it takes
Odds are it won't see store shelves tomorrow
Secret Agent Box
Secret Agent Box
They're giving back its number (40)
and takin' away its name (DTVPal)
Secret Agent Box
Secret Agent Box
They're giving back its number
and takin' away its name
(If you don't know the melody, here's an audio clip at Barnes & Noble: link )
pabeader's recent comments here are more interesting when you know that Malouff thinks pabeader was a beta-tester of the DTVPal ( link ).
For example:
A beta-tester wouldn't be able to test TVGOS functionality personally if he didn't have a "Guide device," but he'd have contacts that could "tell" him these things.
If I want to trust what he was TOLD (not anything he actually TESTED), I'd have to conclude that this information was originally more like "The DTVPal does nothing with digital TVGOS, no repackage, no conversion. The DTVPal acts as a channel-changing slave to the Guide device, and is controlled by the Guide device over the G-Link."
This doesn't change the fact that the Guide device has to receive some data to display in its Guide grid, and that somehow has to come from the DTVPal. (Data might possibly be on some "secret" channel with a blank picture and no sound, which carries PSIP data in a format that the Guide device can interpret like analog TVGOS data, although I don't know how the Guide device would be tricked into not including the "secret" channel as a row in its Guide grid, since the Guide device would have to know of the "secret" channel to tune to it and collect the data. Maybe another mysterious "power" of the special "substitute zip codes"?)
===== end TVGOS stuff ===== begin TR-40 speculation =====
pabeader also said recently at avsforum "notice i don't ever mention the 40? wonder if there is a reason for that..." ( link ). I find it hard to tell if that means "I'm beta-testing the $40 box and can't talk about it" or "There's no such product coming; if it were going to be available by August, I would be testing it by now."
Do you recall that after I speculated here that there may never be a "August $40 box" built in significant quantities, only a repriced DTVPal, he said that was "interesting"? Anole then said something like "no, not interesting, it's a joke!" And pabeader retorted, "no, interesting."
That leaves me wondering the same thing: Does it mean "You're WRONG -- I'm beta-testing the $40 box and can't talk about it" or "You're RIGHT -- There's no such product coming; if it were going to be available by August, I would be testing it by now."
And now, a musical selection that a select few may appreciate:
It's a box that lives a life of danger
The product roll-out keeps on getting stranger
With every move DISH makes
Another chance it takes
Odds are it won't see store shelves tomorrow
Secret Agent Box
Secret Agent Box
They're giving back its number (40)
and takin' away its name (DTVPal)
Secret Agent Box
Secret Agent Box
They're giving back its number
and takin' away its name
(If you don't know the melody, here's an audio clip at Barnes & Noble: link )
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i wonder if there is a reason that a person would post different parts of a message to different forums? so they don't get seen in the same place at the same time???
and the rest is silence...
and the rest is silence...
I did recognize the tune immediately, and laughed pretty good. -
We have a lot of creative talent here, that's plain to see.
However, for a thread meant to REVIEW the DTVpal, this one has gone way off topic, and looks like the meandering crap one sees on AVSforum.
I apologize for adding to the b/s. -
In a few weeks, some of us will have DTVpals, and can actually REVIEW them, and at that time add something useful to this thread.
For everyone peeing their pants while their rebate coupons expire, let me rub this in:
I ordered ONE coupon recently, and it'll arrive about mid July. -
If anything interesting turns up between then and next Feb, I'll be able to order the other.
(...while keeping an eye on what percentage of the total coupons they've sent, so I squeak in under the wire...) -
We have a lot of creative talent here, that's plain to see.
However, for a thread meant to REVIEW the DTVpal, this one has gone way off topic, and looks like the meandering crap one sees on AVSforum.
I apologize for adding to the b/s. -
In a few weeks, some of us will have DTVpals, and can actually REVIEW them, and at that time add something useful to this thread.
For everyone peeing their pants while their rebate coupons expire, let me rub this in:
I ordered ONE coupon recently, and it'll arrive about mid July. -
If anything interesting turns up between then and next Feb, I'll be able to order the other.
(...while keeping an eye on what percentage of the total coupons they've sent, so I squeak in under the wire...) -
I have no idea what was actually tested.
It looked like during beta testing the TR-40 and DTVPal were the same thing.
Today we know that they are different products.
These would have been posts to quote to show why I think pabeader and others were/are a beta tester of the DTVPal
I wonder if there was a announcement to beta test the TR-50 what my chances of getting accepted would be.I just got an email today from Dish telling me that I was accepted. Are they doing another wave of testers?Same here. Came about 12:30 est. Cool!!
I know how to start speculation throughout the Internet.
Look at what I helped start with the DTVPal and how it has grown.
It would be nice if that was one of the requirements.
