EHD on 211 vs 211k

[STDog]

Damn, I thought this was a "technical" board.

So, I ask a few questions about meeting the USB spec, as published and followed by the entire world. Instead of wondering why the equipment doesn't meet the spec, you play apoligist and say who cares.

So I try to discuss the technical merits. I'll wager if you bought some other equipment and it didn't meet the specs you'd not be so apologetic. It not the first time I've had stuff that didn't met the specs that doesn't make me like it.

BTW, I've ordered a different drive. Sorry the damned things aren't in the stores here so I have to wait days for it to get here. I'm not lucky enough to live in a big city where every thing is at your finger tips.

KAB, feel free to not respond as the thread has ended in your opinion.
I really don't want any more of your opinion anyway.

 

[R0ss]

I can return the drive easy enough.

The problem with a separate supply is moving it from receiver to receiver instead of just the drive.
I've got lots of extra USB cables. So the power supply would be the issue.

A simple powered hub that sit at each receiver would be easy.
So, has a powered hub been tried? With a 211?

Still wonder why it's working on the 211K. What's different?

1. Dish requirements are for the EHD to have external power.
2. I have 3 usb devices, EHD, SLING ADAPTER, and WIFI adapter. Only a powered USB hub will work.

Ross

Sent from my DROIDX using SatelliteGuys

 

[TheKrell]

I have several strongly held beliefs, with which KAB and ROss will probably disagree. I believe Dish publishes "requirements" that are over simplified to avoid possibly hundreds of thousands of support calls. The actual technical requirements are unpublished, but I can tell you from examination of a large matrix of WD laptop drives, most draw 0.5 amp during read/write OR MORE. I seriously doubt that there is any current monitoring going on that allows a Dish receiver to spot a bus-powered drive and inhibit operations. Trying to inventory the response of every USB inteface and hard code it into the firmware is likewise untenable. Since many people have tried bus-powered laptop drives with little success, I conclude that the Dish receivers are out of spec. (OK, the drives in question could also be out of spec.)

Therefore, it stands to reason that there are some bus-powered drives, such as the few new ones that draw only 0.25 amps during read/write, which should work and would be very convenient if they were identified. Even if they don't meet the Dish soft marketing "requirements" that some find so sacrosanct.

 

[R0ss]

I have several strongly held beliefs, with which some such as KAB and ROss will probably disagree. I believe Dish publishes "requirements" that are over simplified to avoid possibly hundreds of thousands of support calls. The actual technical requirements are unpublished, but I can tell you from examination of a large matrix of WD laptop drives, most draw 0.5 amp during read/write OR MORE. Since many people have tried bus-powered laptop drives with little success, I conclude that the Dish receivers are out of spec. (OK, the drives in question could also be out of spec.) I seriously doubt that there is any current monitoring going on that allows a Dish receiver to spot a bus-powered drive and inhibit operations. Trying to inventory the response of every USB inteface and hard code it into the firmware is likewise untenable.

Therefore, it stands to reason that there are some bus-powered drives, such as the few new ones that draw only 0.25 amps during read/write, which should work and would be very convenient if they were identified. Even if they don't meet the Dish soft marketing "requirements" that some find so sacrosanct.

Hell I don't disagree at all. I would like to have one less power supply plugged in 24-7.

Ross

Sent from my DROIDX using SatelliteGuys

 

[TheKrell]

I would like to have one less power supply plugged in 24-7.

Hear hear. In my equipment room in the basement, I have the following equpment plugged in 24/7: Surfboard cable modem, D-link wireless router, 3 GigE switches, 2 VoIP adapters, 5 Ximeta Netdisks, Buffalo NAS, 722, EHD for the 722, Hava Platinum, DishPro Adapter, and an OTA distribution amp. Every one of these darn things has either a wall wart or a power brick, with one exception: the 722. At least the Sling Adapter has no external power source!

 

[STDog]

I seriously doubt that there is any current monitoring going on that allows a Dish receiver to spot a bus-powered drive and inhibit operations.

Since all USB devices start up in low power mode (100mA) and have to request higher current, I thought maybe the USB implementation was balking at the request. Or maybe they put a current limiter on the port (good practice in general) and when that limit is hit it shuts the port down.

It just seemed odd that the 211 was able to partition and format the drive, but then complained.

Therefore, it stands to reason that there are some bus-powered drives, such as the few new ones that draw only 0.25 amps during read/write, which should work and would be very convenient if they were identified.

The read/write power probably isn't the issue. I would expect the problem to be spin up. Once the disk is moving power should fall off a lot.

Interesting note, USB3.0 allow higher current, up to 900mA (six 150mA steps, instead of five 100mA steps).

 

[STDog]

1. Dish requirements are for the EHD to have external power.
2. I have 3 usb devices, EHD, SLING ADAPTER, and WIFI adapter. Only a powered USB hub will work.

Is that using a bus powered EHD? Have you tried one?
If the receiver can talk through a hub (per the spec) then a powered hub should work for a bus powered drive. (and meet the Dish requirementas the hub supply would be an external supply)

 

[TheKrell]

Since all USB devices start up in low power mode (100mA) and have to request higher current...

Well then I stand corrected. Is this handshake going on all the way back to the MPU, or just within the USB controller? Grasping at straws here.

 

[STDog]

Is this handshake going on all the way back to the MPU, or just within the USB controller? Grasping at straws here.

That's a good question. It's usually handled by the USB controller, but where that it could vary. All the stuff I worked on had the physical layer in hardware, and that was as far as I went. My memory says that the low level signaling protocol was in hardware.

Beyond that I really don't know. I think either is possible. I'm pretty sure the stuff I worked on had it in the controller, but they were single chip solutions for peripherals, not host controllers. Still, even that was a micro controller and flash programs, so someone could have tweaked the code and made a non compliant device.

Here one I worked on a little, but I never got real deep.
EZ - USB FX2LP™ - USB host - peripheral controllers - PDAs - Set - top boxes - MP3 players / Personal Media Players - Cypress Semiconductor

 

[STDog]

So, it's been a while.

My Seagate GoFlex has been attached to my ViP211 using a powered hub since the end of this thread.

Still no clue why the 211k ran fine with it but not the older 211.

Mean while I've been through 3 different case for the 3.5" drive on the other unit. The drive is still fine, just the USB bridge and power supplies keep dying.

It's about time to change stuff up. the 500GB drives are getting old. Time to upgrade.
I'll probably get similar 2TB drive next. Depend on the pricing sweet spot of course.
500GB hasn't been an issue as far as capacity.

 

[mwdxer1]

I have a 211k and I bought a WD 500GB back in 2011. A year ago I bought a 1tb Toshiba portable drive and since it is not powered, if did not work. I bought a powered hub and it works just fine.

 

[STDog]

A year ago I bought a 1tb Toshiba portable drive and since it is not powered, if did not work.

Interesting that my older Seagate worked w/o additional power but not the newer Toshiba you tried.

Is it the different drives or is it the different receivers.

Back when I started this thread no one was interested in why.

It still appears to me that Dish isn't meeting the USB spec (500mA) at least not consistently.


But back then, no one even wanted to try a powered hub.

 

[yomama]

I have a 211k and I bought a WD 500GB back in 2011. A year ago I bought a 1tb Toshiba portable drive and since it is not powered, if did not work. I bought a powered hub and it works just fine.

What powered hub are you using ? Make/Model

 

[STDog]

Some chepo from a local shop.

Says Ultra on the top, but no model on it.

Quick search online and it looks like this one.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4475078

Appears to have been discontinued, bu I'd expect any powered hub to work.
I have another one, different brand/model somewhere. I tested it and it worked with the receiver.
I bought it to use when I moved the drive to another receiver, but have not needed to do that.

 

[JayStil]

I have a Belkin powered hub that I never could get to work with my 711k, Sling Adapter, and either powered or portable bus powered USB drive. Just wouldn't recognize things plugged into it. Could've been the receiver, it was a little wonky with a powered drive plugged directly into the USB port too.

I'm on my second replacement receiver since then. I'll have to try the hub again and see if it works.