Eastern Arc SD Bitrates Up, PQ Down

[dgray9]

buckchow:

Where did you get the July 6, 2009 image ?

Was it from an older recording from your SD DVR ?

I'm trying to find out if this change happened because of a software upgrade, and if it affects previously recorded SD content on the DVR .

Are all of my previously recorded programs (even those from last summer) being filtered like this ?
?

 

[digiblur]

buckchow:

Where did you get the July 6, 2009 image ?

Was it from an older recording from your SD DVR ?

I'm trying to find out if this change happened because of a software upgrade, and if it affects previously recorded SD content on the DVR .

Are all of my previously recorded programs (even those from last summer) being filtered like this ?
?

I believe he is using something like this:
HD DVR and PVR Products - Home of the R5000-HD DVR

 

[cditty]

I would like to know more about the setup as well. How are you getting the bitrate, etc...

I'm just curious. I don't know too much about that side of things.

 

[Kirby Baker]

If you ask me, the pic on the bottom looks better, but that's just me.

Even the background, like the brick wall? Look at how the mortar lines are all but gone on the new picture vs. the old one (above piano and on back wall near drapes).

 

[jmccurrytech]

If they didn't have the bandwidth that's one thing, but when you have enough room and intentionally do things to make the picture worse, it just pisses me off!

 

[HDRoberts]

Even the background, like the brick wall? Look at how the mortar lines are all but gone on the new picture vs. the old one (above piano and on back wall near drapes).

Meh. When I'm watching that movie, I'm not looking at the bricks by the piano. I'm looking at the blond. In the second picture, things seem brighter. But otherwise, the difference is scarcely enough to notice, at least in the part of the picture where the action is.

 

[buckchow]

Meh. When I'm watching that movie, I'm not looking at the bricks by the piano. I'm looking at the blond. In the second picture, things seem brighter. But otherwise, the difference is scarcely enough to notice, at least in the part of the picture where the action is.

The point isn't that the difference will be scarce in some cases to some people, it is that the difference is there at all. In the end you are still getting less picture in more bits which is crazy. When bitrates go up, we all know very well that PQ should at least be the same as before and hopefully be better. It's inexcusable on the technical side of things, and it surely reduces the DVR capacity for many people as well, so it can lower the quality of a subscriber's experience in at least two ways.

 

[buckchow]

Where did you get the July 6, 2009 image ?

I believe he is using something like this:
HD DVR and PVR Products - Home of the R5000-HD DVR

Right.

How are you getting the bitrate, etc...

For the bitrate graphs, the stats are generated by a program that counts up the bits in the stream for every second on the reference clock (given in the stream), then the data points are just plotted in Excel.

Was it from an older recording from your SD DVR ?

No, so I doubt the software issue you mentioned would be a factor. The July image comes from a set of reference captures I have archived. I try to have a variety of things that are likely to air again so that when I want to do a new vs. old comparison like this one I just check the schedule for the next time something I have a reference of is airing. TCM is preferred for this since they have plenty of titles that get aired every few months. Get several of those, throw in some others for variety, and the wait to be able to do a comparison isn't very long.

 

[STL]

The point isn't that the difference will be scarce in some cases to some people, it is that the difference is there at all. In the end you are still getting less picture in more bits which is crazy. When bitrates go up, we all know very well that PQ should at least be the same as before and hopefully be better. It's inexcusable on the technical side of things, and it surely reduces the DVR capacity for many people as well, so it can lower the quality of a subscriber's experience in at least two ways.

x2

 

[Jim S.]

To the question of removing SD - some of us still have archos devices that do not do HD. I still record and use it on trips.

I thought that those didn't do MPEG4, period.

 

[TheKrell]

I thought that those didn't do MPEG4, period.

All Archos media players with which I am familiar are primarily mpeg4 devices. You need to buy either the Cinema Plug-in, or else get the free Dish Network plug-in in order to enable mpeg-2 (and DD) playback. There is no reason other than Dish and Archos parting ways that prevents the download and playback of mpeg4 SD programs, or (on the latest Archos Media Tablets) mpeg4 HD up to 720p. IIRC 1080i (or p) is still a bridge too far for Archos players.

 

[Jim S.]

Huh. I could've sworn there were people complaining about not being able to use their PocketDish when they switched to Eastern Arc.

 

[Jim S.]

Umm...okay....I mean What! How could they, umm...

OK, so it's not a huge difference, but the problem is that even the "before" picture is far removed from what a reasonable facsimile of a professional TV signal should look like!

Let me ask you this: just how far would you be willing to let them degrade the picture before you thought there was a problem? 320x240? (I actually saw somebody broadcasting that on Galaxy 19 last year.)

 

[TheKrell]

Huh. I could've sworn there were people complaining about not being able to use their PocketDish when they switched to Eastern Arc.

I beg your pardon; apparently I was unclear. Indeed, EA Dish subscribers cannot use their Archos products because they can only accept Dish mpeg-2 programs which by the way are encrypted during the transfer. This does not mean that an Archos can't play mpeg-4 programs from other sources. Heck most can even record using mpeg-4. So Dish and Archos could make mpeg-4 SD and HD transfers possible, but to date they have not.

 

[buckchow]

Although I don't think this will have much of an effect on things...over the next 2-3 weeks a lot of 77w programming will be moving to 72.7w. The locals on 77w will not move.

Looks like this definitely factors into things. 10 more SD channels have been added to the transponder with TCM as of some time earlier today. Plenty of other SD channels showing up on other transponders as well. Guess we'll have to wait and see how things compare once everything being moved is firmly in place.

Also, on at least one other transponder they've shoved the ~10-11 Mbps of null data back into the stream.

EDIT: 8 SD channels added to the transponder I had seen with lots of null data. At least they're filling the space in a timely manner this time around. The 4 or so months that the null data lived there before February was a total waste.

 

[digiblur]

Looks like this definitely factors into things. 10 more SD channels have been added to the transponder with TCM as of some time earlier today. Plenty of other SD channels showing up on other transponders as well. Guess we'll have to wait and see how things compare once everything being moved is firmly in place.

Also, on at least one other transponder they've shoved the ~10-11 Mbps of null data back into the stream.

EDIT: 8 SD channels added to the transponder I had seen with lots of null data. At least they're filling the space in a timely manner this time around. The 4 or so months that the null data lived there before February was a total waste.

Another round of moves tonight. Handful of SD's, audio channels, and HDPPV's are coming over.

 

[dcbag]

So what does all this mean?