DTV installer will not use existing RG59 runs

[johnwadams]

I am fixing to switch from Dish to Direct.
I have Belden RG-59 runs from 1997 to 4 locations, thru attic, down walls, with a double run to the area that will be HD.
A DTV installer, an employee, not an independent, was running a 2nd HD run next door so I asked him about switching me over. He is one of two DTV employees that work our semi rural area. He said they are not allowed to use any runs with HD that are not RG-6. He said they had had RG-59 "overheat". This guy was very polite and seemed like the guy you want for your installation. When my neighbor needs something he specifically requests Xxxxx. He thinks he is great. (when i was talking to him, I did not tell him I had RG-59.

Is this guy full of BS or will Direct not let him use the existing RG-59?

Can it really melt?

All the stubs come to a panel in the garage. I could easily add 3 feet of RG-6 to each line and he would not know what was there. At each tv there is a wall plate, so unless he opened one he would never see the RG-59.

 

[jcrandall]

I don't know if it can melt, but their quality requirements do require RG6 for installs/upgrades, and if the installer ignores that they can get in trouble. So he is not completely off-base.

 

[rad]

Don't know about the melting, sounds like BS to me. It is true though that D* requires RG6 for new HD installs since the Ka band satellite signals need it. There is a way to get around that though if you purchased a SWM8 module or if you order between 5 and 8 tuners they should install the SWM LNB as part of the install. SWM allows for the use of RG59 because it changes the DBS frequency down to a range that RG59 can handle.

 

[sat.ninja]

Is this guy full of BS or will Direct not let him use the existing RG-59?

Can it really melt?

All the stubs come to a panel in the garage. I could easily add 3 feet of RG-6 to each line and he would not know what was there. At each tv there is a wall plate, so unless he opened one he would never see the RG-59.[/quote]

Sounds like you wont be able to fool this tech. He'll either look for 59 or already know you have 59 from working at your neighbor's house. Besides, why would you jeapordize your own installation by using inferior materials? Allow us experienced techs to survey your needs and concerns and if there are any issues, we'll address them first. D* frowns on the use of 59 in non swm applications, but there are cases where we can have the customer sign off on it. Not recomended.

 

[pdxsam]

Since there's voltage going up and down the line there's definitely the possibility for overheat.

Can it melt? Yeah, the inside conductor can break down over time and cause shorts deep in the wall. The inside conductor is larger in RG 6 and has more tolerance.

59 cable is pretty thin, it's fine for cable, but for a sat service that sends voltage over the wire to switch the LNB, I wouldn't trust it either.

 

[sat.ninja]

Ive used 59 for sat and sometimes it'll work. But I'll always have a plan b. If the house has been on cable forever and you introduce voltage to the 59, the effect is immediate... shorts everywhere. If the 59 center conductor is copper clad steel, its not a good idea at all for hd.

 

[Jimbo]

Since there's voltage going up and down the line there's definitely the possibility for overheat.

Can it melt? Yeah, the inside conductor can break down over time and cause shorts deep in the wall. The inside conductor is larger in RG 6 and has more tolerance.

59 cable is pretty thin, it's fine for cable, but for a sat service that sends voltage over the wire to switch the LNB, I wouldn't trust it either.

The amount of voltage going thru the coax lines is no where near what it would take to melt the line.
You have 13v and 18 v going thru the line from the rec. to the LNB, nothing high voltage ...
That said, if you can use RJ-6 go for it, if not, I think you'll still be OK.

Jimbo

 

[Dgenx321]

RG-59 overtime will fail when you start running the higher voltage thru it.

Give it 6 months to a year and it'll be shot....

 

[shmeff]

If rg-59 really melted, rg-6 would have too.

 

[iwc5893]

If rg-59 really melted, rg-6 would have too.

Not necessarily...RG-6 has lower resistance than RG-59, therefore it doesn't generate as much heat due to I Squared R loss.

 

[Zynergi]

Plus on a standard non SWM install teh frequency range is outside of what RG59 can carry with out digress which will lead to SFSS. Problem with using SWM with RG59 is Voltage, you will now be sending 21v/28v down the line and most RG59 is Copper Clad. Most RG59 cable is only rated to work at frequencies below 9xx.

As far as it melting, I doubt it in normal circumstances, if it gets a short somewhere then sure, even 00 guage electrical line can melt the sheathing if there is a short. RG59 doesnt carry voltages very far and certainly cant carry much voltage. I remeber a long time ago running 18gauge power wire for a car amp and it melted, but your talking about alot more voltage/amperage than a sat system.

No he wasn't wrong in terms of not using it, I wouldn't want to use or even try to use RG59 in a HD install as it will certainly induce chargebacks to the tech and frustrations to you.

 

[Tyralak]

I am fixing to switch from Dish to Direct.
I have Belden RG-59 runs from 1997 to 4 locations, thru attic, down walls, with a double run to the area that will be HD.
A DTV installer, an employee, not an independent, was running a 2nd HD run next door so I asked him about switching me over. He is one of two DTV employees that work our semi rural area. He said they are not allowed to use any runs with HD that are not RG-6. He said they had had RG-59 "overheat". This guy was very polite and seemed like the guy you want for your installation. When my neighbor needs something he specifically requests Xxxxx. He thinks he is great. (when i was talking to him, I did not tell him I had RG-59.

Is this guy full of BS or will Direct not let him use the existing RG-59?

Can it really melt?

All the stubs come to a panel in the garage. I could easily add 3 feet of RG-6 to each line and he would not know what was there. At each tv there is a wall plate, so unless he opened one he would never see the RG-59.

He is correct. However, he used the wrong word. "Melt" isn't the word I'd have chosen. RG-59 is only rated to 950 MHz. Satellite works in the range of 950-2150. RG-59 will work at first, and I've seen it work for over a year. However, it breaks down. I've seen it fail in as short a time as a week, depending on the quality of the cable. Let me put it this way: If a Dish Network employee is caught using RG-59 he is written up. If he is caught 3 times in a year, he is fired. It's no joke. RG-59 WILL stop functioning eventually. It won't "melt", but it breaks down the dielectric, and the cable can no longer function as a waveguide, which is how a coax cable works. What will happen, is you will start losing transponders intermittently. Usually the ones in the highest frequency ranges first. Even though the signal will show fine. Then it will stop functioning all together. Legacy Dish Network equipment, and the old 18" 101 only, and Triple Sat DirecTV systems will work on 59 for quite some time, as they top out at 1450 MHz. Although most will fail eventually. It's policy at Dish Network that RG-59 is NEVER to be used for satellite signals, and is only to be used for the backfeed (TV2) I'm sure the DirecTV RSPs have a similar policy.

 

[johnwadams]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

 

[pdxsam]

The amount of voltage going thru the coax lines is no where near what it would take to melt the line.
You have 13v and 18 v going thru the line from the rec. to the LNB, nothing high voltage ...
That said, if you can use RJ-6 go for it, if not, I think you'll still be OK.

Jimbo

true, melt is probably the wrong word. It connotates complete destruction. I was thinking more about over time the insulation breaking down and breaking apart.

 

[damjr]

He is correct. However, he used the wrong word. "Melt" isn't the word I'd have chosen. RG-59 is only rated to 950 MHz. Satellite works in the range of 950-2150. RG-59 will work at first, and I've seen it work for over a year. However, it breaks down. I've seen it fail in as short a time as a week, depending on the quality of the cable. Let me put it this way: If a Dish Network employee is caught using RG-59 he is written up. If he is caught 3 times in a year, he is fired. It's no joke. RG-59 WILL stop functioning eventually. It won't "melt", but it breaks down the dielectric, and the cable can no longer function as a waveguide, which is how a coax cable works. What will happen, is you will start losing transponders intermittently. Usually the ones in the highest frequency ranges first. Even though the signal will show fine. Then it will stop functioning all together. Legacy Dish Network equipment, and the old 18" 101 only, and Triple Sat DirecTV systems will work on 59 for quite some time, as they top out at 1450 MHz. Although most will fail eventually. It's policy at Dish Network that RG-59 is NEVER to be used for satellite signals, and is only to be used for the backfeed (TV2) I'm sure the DirecTV RSPs have a similar policy.

This is the exact explaination as to why you can not use RG59.
Also, if the run is over 100 ft you will see a drop in the higher transponders as well. As stated above, RG59 is not designed for satellite frequency.

 

[Donnernv]

I can only add my own experiences. I have two houses. Both are legacy RG-59. Total, I have eight new D*Tv hi-def receivers and five old Uniden SD receivers. There are runs over 100 ft. They have been in place for between three months and three years.

With a single exception, which has a buried splitter problem, they all work fine.

The notion that RG-59 could "melt" is ridiculous. The idea that this voltage (13vdc and 18vdc) could generate enough resistance heat to melt butter is silly. The problem is that RG-59 is more lossy than RG-6. So, longer runs may attenuate the incoming signal enough that the receivers cannot see enough to decode it.

I've done it lots. They work. That's my experience. Simply Google "RG-59 resistance" and "RG-6 resistance " (actually, impedance) to get the specs.

 

[jimjo3298]

All HD Requirments I've heard say RG-6 needs to be sweep tested to at least 2700 Mhz. I Have 2 Dual Tuner DVRs each has RG-6 That is sweep tested to 3000Mhz. Have never had a single issue with my HD set or receivers. Also my OTA Hd Ant has Vextra 3000 Mhz wirerun to each receiver. I install dish and have NEVER NEVER used RG-59 even with an SD install.

 

[Jared Twomey]

Not all cable is created equally, I have seen (and used) good quality RG59 on the occasional install if there was no other option, but I have also seen RG59 I would trust to carry a cable signal successfully.

I can only add my own experiences. I have two houses. Both are legacy RG-59. Total, I have eight new D*Tv hi-def receivers and five old Uniden SD receivers. There are runs over 100 ft. They have been in place for between three months and three years.

With a single exception, which has a buried splitter problem, they all work fine.

The notion that RG-59 could "melt" is ridiculous. The idea that this voltage (13vdc and 18vdc) could generate enough resistance heat to melt butter is silly. The problem is that RG-59 is more lossy than RG-6. So, longer runs may attenuate the incoming signal enough that the receivers see enoufg to cannot decode it.

I've done it lots. They work. That's my experience. Simply Google "RG-59 resistance" and "RG-6 resistance " (actually, impedance) to get the specs.

 

[Tyralak]

I can only add my own experiences. I have two houses. Both are legacy RG-59. Total, I have eight new D*Tv hi-def receivers and five old Uniden SD receivers. There are runs over 100 ft. They have been in place for between three months and three years.

With a single exception, which has a buried splitter problem, they all work fine.

The notion that RG-59 could "melt" is ridiculous. The idea that this voltage (13vdc and 18vdc) could generate enough resistance heat to melt butter is silly. The problem is that RG-59 is more lossy than RG-6. So, longer runs may attenuate the incoming signal enough that the receivers see enoufg to cannot decode it.

I've done it lots. They work. That's my experience. Simply Google "RG-59 resistance" and "RG-6 resistance " (actually, impedance) to get the specs.

Perhaps you should have read the entire thread. We've all agreed that "melt" was the wrong word. Frequencies used in satellite, especially DishPro and SWM frequencies (950-2150) will eventually render the cable unusable. I've been a technician for almost 6 years. I've seen more RG-59 failures than I can count. Not so many when they're using Legacy Dish Network or older DirecTV systems. A large number occurred during upgrades from Legacy to DishPro and especially DishPro Plus equipment.
I actually had an RG-59 run fail right in front of me. Earlier in my career I was upgrading a customer from a 2700 with a legacy twin to a 501 and a DP Twin. There was RG6 from the dish going into the attic. I assumed it was RG6 all the way to the wall plate. The receiver lost contact with the LNBF DURING the download. I tried to tone out the line, no tone. I finally looked behind the wall plate (Yes, I should have done that to begin with) and found 59. I replaced that drop with a new RG6 line, and it worked fine. I've gone to many, many trouble calls where the job was installed anywhere from a week to 6 months prior, the tech used the existing 59, and now the line no longer works. Not only will it not register signal, but it won't tone out, and won't even pass CATV video signals. It might as well be a length of yarn.
Yes, there's always going to be individuals like yourself with a system or two where it works fine. They will inevitably pop up here and there in threads like this and claim that us techs with years of experience are full of crap, because THEIR system still works. Well, as I mentioned before, there are always exceptions. But the rule is solid. Using RG-59 with modern satellite systems is like playing Russian Roulette with a six shooter and 4 bullets.

 

[Beagle]

going to directv a bad idea

if there is any way possible to change out that rg-59 i would do it.it will cause you problems in the future.
but i would not recomend going over to direct. dirctv is notorious for bad customer service.dish network is with in 2 or 3 channels of HD that directv has.in fact dish is slated to have more HD than directv by the end of year.
why do you want to switch ? you are better off now,i know of at least 4 house holds that switched from dish to direct and with in 6 months they all switched back,for many different reasons.