Do I need to ground a dish that is sitting on the ground?

[navychop]

I suspect it's a matter of CONDUCTIVITY not distance.

Be that as it may, NONE of my dishes have been properly grounded by the installer.

I'm not sweating it.


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[TheKrell]

Lighting will follow down a sailboat mast and then go straight through the fiberglass hull without any metal to follow.

What boat builders do is to ground the mast to the keel. Lightning does not go through the fiberglass hull, or there would be many many sailors electrocuted at sea every year. I know this for a fact since I spent a number of summers on my own sailboat trying to dodge thunderstorms on the Potomac. And yes, I checked to make certain the mast was grounded.

I suspect it's a matter of CONDUCTIVITY not distance.

Right. It takes the path of least resistance, not the least distance as implied by a post on P1.

 

[DISHinOhio]

Could a grounding issue cause power failure on receivers? Example... If a person keeps getting new receivers and they keep having power failure issues, could this be caused by an improperly grounded install?


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[JSheridan]

Could a grounding issue cause power failure on receivers? Example... If a person keeps getting new receivers and they keep having power failure issues, could this be caused by an improperly grounded install?


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In my experience repeated receiver failures can be caused by a bad ground or a ground that isn't connected to the main house ground, but not by the absence of a ground.

 

[KazooGuy]

I am not sure if this factual story is going to point pro or con, but in the summer of 09 a tree in my backyard was struck by lighting. The tree was 75 feet from the northeast corner of my house. My dish is is located on a ground pole on the southeast corner of the house, and is perhaps an additional 25 feet from the tree that was struck. At that time the dish had been installed in the spring of 03 and was not grounded and I had two 500 dishes. I had upgraded to HD earlier that year and at that time my locals were on 61.5 so I needed the wing dish. The strike split an 80 foot cherry tree and had to be taken down, and it did NO damage to any of my dish equipment with one exception. At the time I had a 722 and a 211 and the strike took out both modems on the receivers as the energy came in thru the phone line. It also took out my DSL modem and ethernet connection on my computers motherboard. The phone line came in to the home on the opposite side of the house more than 75 feet beyond where the dish equipment enters the house, and the phone equipment is grounded into the house's electrical ground, which enters the home at the same spot. My point is the correctly grounded equipment failed to stop damage and equipment that was ungrounded and closer to the strike was unharmed, with the exception of the phone line modems. Dish replaced both receivers without cost to me, even though they worked fine, they just could not dial out or connect to the company. Since then the dish had been grounded when Dish took out the wing dish and installed a 1000.2 dish three or four years ago and since then I have been switched to the EA.

 

[AZ.]

I am not sure if this factual story is going to point pro or con, but in the summer of 09 a tree in my backyard was struck by lighting. The tree was 75 feet from the northeast corner of my house. My dish is is located on a ground pole on the southeast corner of the house, and is perhaps an additional 25 feet from the tree that was struck. At that time the dish had been installed in the spring of 03 and was not grounded and I had two 500 dishes. I had upgraded to HD earlier that year and at that time my locals were on 61.5 so I needed the wing dish. The strike split an 80 foot cherry tree and had to be taken down, and it did NO damage to any of my dish equipment with one exception. At the time I had a 722 and a 211 and the strike took out both modems on the receivers as the energy came in thru the phone line. It also took out my DSL modem and ethernet connection on my computers motherboard. The phone line came in to the home on the opposite side of the house more than 75 feet beyond where the dish equipment enters the house, and the phone equipment is grounded into the house's electrical ground, which enters the home at the same spot. My point is the correctly grounded equipment failed to stop damage and equipment that was ungrounded and closer to the strike was unharmed, with the exception of the phone line modems. Dish replaced both receivers without cost to me, even though they worked fine, they just could not dial out or connect to the company. Since then the dish had been grounded when Dish took out the wing dish and installed a 1000.2 dish three or four years ago and since then I have been switched to the EA.

Yes perfect example of how you never know what's going to happen....(path of least resistance!).... again....If grounds weren't needed they wouldn't be used...Just that simple...But yours is the norm for transient lightning strike....The dishes hardly get hit!

 

[Brussam]

Lightning does not go through the fiberglass hull, or there would be many many sailors electrocuted at sea every year.

When I taught dealing with lightning in the Unites States Power Squadron, we had a video showing just that, lightning punching through a fiberglass hull after it departed the mast ground wire.

I had a friend lose all his electronics on his boat when the boat next slip over was hit by lightning. It was a Grand Banks, a well grounded boat. The impact was from induced voltage.

Lightning hits outside a house can induce current in the plumbing inside the house. It take a few thousand volts to jump a .25" gap. Imagine the voltage in a lightning bolt of hundreds of yards long. And you are going to direct that on a #10 wire?

 

[ronjohn]

There are other issues with grounding a satellite dish other than lightning. The dishes can build up static charges as wind blows across them. With no ground, the charge could build up until the only reference to ground is the coax going to the receiver. If mounting bolts or an aluminum pole were enough of a connection to ground for a building, then a lot of money would be saved vs installing copper rods. The biggest thing about not grounding a dish, or not grounding properly is that it does not meet the NEC. It might work, and you might never see an issue. However, if there happened to be a loss of property associated with a house with an improperly grounded dish, would you have the technical expertise or money to fight with an insurance company that wanted to not pay?

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...ingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm

 

[navychop]

Ok, my OTA and Dish antennas are not grounded. Roof mount. Coax goes inside attic next to where they are mounted.

Is the only option to ground to run #10 copper (etc) across the roof, over the eave, down the side if the house to the elec service entrance? No run it into the attic and connect to an outlet ground? Any other options?


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[TheKrell]

When I taught dealing with lightning in the Unites States Power Squadron, we had a video showing just that, lightning punching through a fiberglass hull after it departed the mast ground wire.

I would like to see that video. So... Inquiring minds want to know. Why did the lightning depart the mast ground wire? Was it not connected very well to the keel, and thereby provide much lower resistance into the water than the fiberglass hull? Obviously not if that's what happened.

Looks like a 4 AWG (battery cable?) is recommended to ground a mast to the nearest keel bolt.

 

[AZ.]

Ok, my OTA and Dish antennas are not grounded. Roof mount. Coax goes inside attic next to where they are mounted.

Is the only option to ground to run #10 copper (etc) across the roof, over the eave, down the side if the house to the elec service entrance? No run it into the attic and connect to an outlet ground? Any other options?


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The longer you make that wire the more resistance it will gain....They upsize grounding to reduce the resistance.... I would not tie anything to my house other than the outside ground rod or city side of water service! See the coax is bringing it directly into your home....Putting a grounding block before it reaches your inside of home just protects it, and you hope it takes that path(#10 wire). with lighting nothing is garneted but doing nothing just increases your odds of a problem god forbid the worst happens...For some reason people just don't understand the safety sides of things...or just don't care?

 

[jarvantgroup]

With all that being said about NEC codes, hillbilly installers, you must ground or not.....Dish Network is still allowing apartments, condos, and RV's to be installed every single day, ungrounded, and they collect monthly fees from these customers. If it were such a liability and such a dangerous situation of having an ungrounded system, why would such a huge company like Dish Network still allow these 'DANGEROUS' systems to remain active? Isn't Dish Network ultimately the bad guy in this situation?

 

[osumike]

It's probably more of turning a blind eye, and I'm sure they still expect these installs to be grounded. But as we installers know, there are times that you just can't reasonably get it grounded, especially on a third floor apartment balcony. I'm sure dish would rather take a chance than not get that customer locked into a contract.

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[rexlan]

There are other issues with grounding a satellite dish other than lightning. The dishes can build up static charges as wind blows across them. With no ground, the charge could build up until the only reference to ground is the coax going to the receiver. If mounting bolts or an aluminum pole were enough of a connection to ground for a building, then a lot of money would be saved vs installing copper rods. The biggest thing about not grounding a dish, or not grounding properly is that it does not meet the NEC. It might work, and you might never see an issue. However, if there happened to be a loss of property associated with a house with an improperly grounded dish, would you have the technical expertise or money to fight with an insurance company that wanted to not pay?

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/GroundingSatelliteDishandLead-InCables~20020303.htm

Mostly accurate but as a practical matter total BS .............

The biggest thing about not grounding a dish, or not grounding properly is that it does not meet the NEC.

Good grief !

The odds, yea I know, of having to fight with an insurance company because the ungrounded dish caused a loss of my property are less than hitting the lottery 3 times running.

 

[ronjohn]

Mostly accurate but as a practical matter total BS ............. Good grief !

The odds, yea I know, of having to fight with an insurance company because the ungrounded dish caused a loss of my property are less than hitting the lottery 3 times running.

If you install a dish at your own house with an improper ground, chances are small that it will cause your house to burn down. If you install a light fixture at your house improperly, chances are higher, but still small that it will cause your house to burn down. I have heard of several cases where homeowners installed larger items such as dryer outlets or AC units that did cause fires that burned their house down.

For professional construction trades such as electricians, there is usually a fairly rigorous training procedure. For IBEW electricians, you start with a four year apprenticeship which includes working and taking classes. You then can qualify to be a journeyman electrician. After four years as a journeyman electrician, you can qualify to be a master electrician. During all of that training, you learn the NEC code. You learn how to size wires. You learn how many wires you can put into a conduit. You learn the proper ways and methods to install a ground. If you consistently install systems that do not meet code, you will not be in business as an electrician very long. If a significant portion of engineers and electricians do not feel that the code is proper, there is a mechanism for making suggested changes back to the National Fire Protection Association(NFPA), the group who publishes the NEC.

The satellite dish installation industry would not need as rigorous a system as the IBEW to train installers. But it appears that with many installers, the training consists of a few weeks consisting only of methods of mounting and aiming a dish. Imagine a situation where an installation company consistently does not ground the dish properly or at all.(Not uncommon) If the house burns down, a lawyer could sue the installation company. They could show that the company consistently violates the building codes. They could argue that violating codes puts people at risk. They could argue that this customers house was at risk because of the installation companies disregard for building codes, and it burned down. If the lawyer makes good arguments in court, the installer could potentially have to prove that the fire was caused by something other than the satellite dish to keep the jury from deciding based upon pity for the customer and contempt for a company that thumbs their nose at building codes.

I would say that installation companies should consult with code experts to develop guidelines for their employees. They should train their employees on how to properly ground dishes. If enough of the installation companies have experts who believe that the current code is overreaching, they should appeal to the NFPA. What is not acceptable is having employees installing systems who have no idea what the requirements are.

 

[agentc13]

I would say that installation companies should consult with code experts to develop guidelines for their employees. They should train their employees on how to properly ground dishes. If enough of the installation companies have experts who believe that the current code is overreaching, they should appeal to the NFPA. What is not acceptable is having employees installing systems who have no idea what the requirements are.

DISH does train on proper grounding. In fact their requirements are fairly stringent compared to the NEC as we are not allowed to ground inside a house anymore.

But, the local management will tell you to install it anyway even if you can't ground it, even if it is against Dish (and NEC) regulations.

 

[osumike]

Agentc is right. We're actually told if the ground source isn't within 20' of the ground block/node, then don't worry about grounding the system. I don't fully understand how the whole thing works, but I did have an issue once. I did a four room new connect, dish on a pole, ran all brand new cable thru crawl space. As I was hooking up receivers, I was getting no signal. Turned out the houses ground was not correct, and started using the dish on the pole as the ground. Fried every cable I ran, had to redo the entire install. This was years ago and I can't remember if I had my system grounded before I installed the receivers, or left it ungrounded after I rebuilt it or what.

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[AZ.]

The thing that most are missing is that the LNBs run on max 36 volts so its considered class 2 wiring... now if 110 or more went to the dish then things would be very different...Point always being, for the most part try as hard as possible to ground any dish...It will not make it better, work better, pick up signal better, the ground is there for one thing and one thing only..... S A F T Y !