DISH -VS- VOOM - A Settlement has been reached!

[HDRoberts]

I know when I signed up with Dish. I was supposed to get the SD DVR, but they brought me a VIP 722. For nearly two years I only got the "Test" channel in HD, which was HD Theater just labeled test. I refused to pay for an HD upgrade until I was offered HD free for life, if I paid the $10 for the old HD Platinum. I dropped Multi-Sports and went with HD. Funny thing was that I actually had HD on Comcast before I bought my current home and switched to Dish.

The moral is, I'm just one person. I bet there are plenty like me who might be equipped for HD, but just don't subscribe.

Also, I wish I still had the channel lineup card from 2008. Because, I specifically remember the VOOM channels being in either the highest HD package or second highest. Meaning that not all HD subs today would have subscribed to VOOM. So that percentage really should have an asterisk next to it.

My parents are in a similar situation. The switched to EA due to LOS, and thus now have a 722. They get HD as that is the only version of many channels on EA, but only have SD TVs and don't sub to HD.

The 2008 card with Voom on a separate tier was from when Dish was initially citing a breach. THe affiliation agreement required Voom for a certain (and if memory serves, high) percentage of subs. Befor 2008, all HD subs had to get a $20 HD add on pack that included Voom and many of the current Platinum channels.

 

[navychop]

......Yep, only the os that most of the world uses to get things done.

Overwhelmingly so.

Overwhelmingly slow. And no where near as quick and easy to use as a dedicated piece of hardware. I had two (ATI HDTV Wonders?) and still have one at work. Simply not for the masses.

 

[mike123abc]

Even if Dish ends up paying a billion or 2, they probably are better off than if they have kept VOOM. VOOM was 15 channels of HD, which of the current channels would Dish have to give up if they have kept VOOM? People complain that the RSNs are not full time. Imagine that with 15 other missing HD channels. VOOM was not selling subscriptions. Dish got to stop paying for it for many years now. Even if they end up having to pay for it in the long run, they got to sit on the money and attract new subs during this period. Plus now with the AMC dropping softening the blow, it will be less of a setback.

It will be interesting to see what the jury decides. They could well end up compromising and awarding 500 million. If so, that would be a major win for Dish.

One also has to remember that this also got them the Eastern Arc with the 61.5 TPs. How many more subs has Dish been able to gain because they had this extra satellite capacity?

Lets see raising rates $2/sub/month next year 14million times $24/year pays off a billion in under 3 years...

 

[GaryPen]

Overwhelmingly slow. And no where near as quick and easy to use as a dedicated piece of hardware. I had two (ATI HDTV Wonders?) and still have one at work. Simply not for the masses.

Mochuf and I were simply pointing out that Windows is overwhelmingly the most-used OS in the world. Your ATI Wonder may have sucked. But, it has nothing to do with Windows.

BTW, I own both Win7 and OSX machines. I prefer Win7 hands-down over OSX, if you were somehow implying Windows' inferiority to other Operating Systems.

 

[navychop]

I am stating that waiting for a Windows machine to boot up and go thru calling a program is not for the masses. And W is generally not something you can leave on all the time. Even if you did so little with it that it was reliable, I think it's overkill, inappropriate for the application for most, and probably sucks more power.

A dedicated piece of hardware is more appropriate for most. Most don't want to deal with an HTPC. Viewed as too much of a hassle when there are much easier options out there. That's all.

 

[PTVC]

It looks like Dish has been on the losing end of it from the beginning and maybe rightfully so. The setback with the spoilage ruling, having to open up its HD subscriber database, hard drives and IT system to scrutiny and refusing to turn over documents that the Judge said were not privileged does not make it look good at all. The Judge admonished the Dish lawyers, told them he didn't care how much money they have, said the lawyers were disrespecting the court and that he may end up ruling in favor of AMC and would allow the jury to determine the award. Some jury members supposedly will be released at the end of the month and the additional $1 billion that could be rewarded if the HD subscriber numbers are at the national average could be Dish's Voom doom. Its almost as though Dish wants to lose. If Dish keeps testing the judge, they'll will. I'm wondering if Dish's debt offering and bond sales are partly because they plan on having to pay and still want enough cash on hand to start offering wireless.

Even if Dish ends up paying a billion or 2, they probably are better off than if they have kept VOOM. VOOM was 15 channels of HD, which of the current channels would Dish have to give up if they have kept VOOM? People complain that the RSNs are not full time. Imagine that with 15 other missing HD channels. VOOM was not selling subscriptions. Dish got to stop paying for it for many years now. Even if they end up having to pay for it in the long run, they got to sit on the money and attract new subs during this period. Plus now with the AMC dropping softening the blow, it will be less of a setback.

It will be interesting to see what the jury decides. They could well end up compromising and awarding 500 million. If so, that would be a major win for Dish.

One also has to remember that this also got them the Eastern Arc with the 61.5 TPs. How many more subs has Dish been able to gain because they had this extra satellite capacity?

Lets see raising rates $2/sub/month next year 14million times $24/year pays off a billion in under 3 years...

 

[riffjim4069]

It looks like Dish has been on the losing end of it from the beginning and maybe rightfully so. The setback with the spoilage ruling, having to open up its HD subscriber database, hard drives and IT system to scrutiny and refusing to turn over documents that the Judge said were not privileged does not make it look good at all. The Judge admonished the Dish lawyers, told them he didn't care how much money they have, said the lawyers were disrespecting the court and that he may end up ruling in favor of AMC and would allow the jury to determine the award. Some jury members supposedly will be released at the end of the month and the additional $1 billion that could be rewarded if the HD subscriber numbers are at the national average could be Dish's Voom doom. Its almost as though Dish wants to lose. If Dish keeps testing the judge, they'll will. I'm wondering if Dish's debt offering and bond sales are partly because they plan on having to pay and still want enough cash on hand to start offering wireless.

I'm not sure this is going to cost Dish anymore in the long run than continuing for the duration of the contract - and probably a lot less after HD went mainstream. However, it appears to be a crappy way to do business. I still say the proper thing to do was terminate the agreement, send Voom a check for $500M, and tell them to sue if they didn't feel that was enough. AMC/Voom would have most likely cashed the check and gone away to pursue other business opportunities. We'll find out soon enough if litigation and electing not to review the AMC Networks channels was their best strategy.

 

[PTVC]

and probably a lot less after HD went mainstream.

That was something I was curious about. Does anyone know definitively whether the HD subscriber numbers in question are pre lawsuit and does having an HD receiver matter? The reason I ask is Dish has been offering free HD for life for a long time.

However, it appears to be a crappy way to do business. I still say the proper thing to do was terminate the agreement, send Voom a check for $500M, and tell them to sue if they didn't feel that was enough. AMC/Voom would have most likely cashed the check and gone away to pursue other business opportunities. We'll find out soon enough if litigation and electing not to review the AMC Networks channels was their best strategy.

Dish has been acting reprehensibly. They probably should not have deleted the emails and they would have more credibility with the court. The spoilage thing has always been the most curious part of it for me. If Dish is on the right side of it, why did they delete the emails even after Voom notified them they were filing a lawsuit? Its only made their actions since more incredulous.

 

[HDRoberts]

Dish has been acting reprehensibly. They probably should not have deleted the emails and they would have more credibility with the court. The spoilage thing has always been the most curious part of it for me. If Dish is on the right side of it, why did they delete the emails even after Voom notified them they were filing a lawsuit? Its only made their actions since more incredulous.

The deletions were automatic. They were not shredding them as the suit came along. Dish, being party to so many suits, simply had a very proactive system to get rid of email. Just this time it bit them. They got in trouble because they were supposed to stop automatically deleting email as soon as they reasonably thought a lawsuit was coming. I don't think there has been anyone arguing that Dish took any affirmative action to delete the emails. The judge just got so pissed off because Dish has faced this issue before, so he thought they should have been faster with the legislative hold.

 

[riffjim4069]

That was something I was curious about. Does anyone know definitively whether the HD subscriber numbers in question are pre lawsuit and does having an HD receiver matter? The reason I ask is Dish has been offering free HD for life for a long time.

Let's see...according to the affiliation agreement VoomHD had to available in the basic HD package and there was a penetration requirement that stated it had to be subscribed to by something like 80-90% of all HD subscribers. This is 'general' number since the penetration requirement was different each year of the 15-year agreement. Obviously, Dish would have to supply their HD subscriber numbers for years 2008-2012 in order for the court to determine damages, if the verdict is against them. I do recall that Voom forecasted Dish would have 11M HD subscribers by the 15th year of the contract (2019). But this was just a forecast...that number could have been higher or lower depending on many factors.

Offhand, it seems like 40% of Dish customer subscribing to HD are a bit low. However, they do offer the a few bare-bones programming packages and claim their rural customers don't care about HD (or zombies for that matter) so who knows? However, they have been pushing the HD for life and free HD equipment and upgrades for some years, so it's hard to believe that the HD penetration would be 70% nationally and only 40% at Dish Network. We shall see.

Dish has been acting reprehensibly. They probably should not have deleted the emails and they would have more credibility with the court. The spoilage thing has always been the most curious part of it for me. If Dish is on the right side of it, why did they delete the emails even after Voom notified them they were filing a lawsuit? Its only made their actions since more incredulous.

That's Voom's arguments and, so far, Judge Lowe has agreed. Whether it makes a bit of difference in the long-run...we shall see.

 

[PTVC]

Their retention policy came up in a previous court case, so its not as if Dish wasn't aware of what they were doing. Not that it matters because emails surfaced in connection with an unrelated lawsuit that showed EchoStar execs discussed their desire to terminate the contract with Voom. So, ya, they got bit alright. Can't blame the court for being distrustful of Dish.

The deletions were automatic. They were not shredding them as the suit came along. Dish, being party to so many suits, simply had a very proactive system to get rid of email. Just this time it bit them. They got in trouble because they were supposed to stop automatically deleting email as soon as they reasonably thought a lawsuit was coming. I don't think there has been anyone arguing that Dish took any affirmative action to delete the emails. The judge just got so pissed off because Dish has faced this issue before, so he thought they should have been faster with the legislative hold.

 

[PTVC]

Not that its a representation of all Dish subscribers, but we have had HD going back to when we had the Voom channels. So, it seems reasonable to think that its higher than 40%.

Offhand, it seems like 40% of Dish customer subscribing to HD are a bit low. However, they do offer the a few bare-bones programming packages and claim their rural customers don't care about HD (or zombies for that matter) so who knows? However, they have been pushing the HD for life and free HD equipment and upgrades for some years, so it's hard to believe that the HD penetration would be 70% nationally and only 40% at Dish Network. We shall see.

 

[riffjim4069]

The deletions were automatic. They were not shredding them as the suit came along. Dish, being party to so many suits, simply had a very proactive system to get rid of email. Just this time it bit them. They got in trouble because they were supposed to stop automatically deleting email as soon as they reasonably thought a lawsuit was coming. I don't think there has been anyone arguing that Dish took any affirmative action to delete the emails. The judge just got so pissed off because Dish has faced this issue before, so he thought they should have been faster with the legislative hold.

That may be true, but Judge Lowe said Dish deleting emails for anywhere from 6-months to a year after they were supposed to tag/retain these emails for litigation. He said this conduct was negligent, if not worse. Voom accused Dish of hiding/not sharing documents during discovery on more than one occasion. Fast forward to August and Voom claimed Dish was again hiding evidence by asserting privilege on documents that were merely a business record. The Judge agreed on all but 2 or 3 of those documents. Anyway, the Judge ruled that Dish "deleted" email evidence and that is why they are being sanctioned. The appellate court agreed.

 

[riffjim4069]

Not that its a representation of all Dish subscribers, but we have had HD going back to when we had the Voom channels. So, it seems reasonable to think that its higher than 40%.

My 75-year old mother in-law has an HD set, HD DVR, and HD for life and she's a non techie. That number does seem low, but only an audit will tell.

 

[paulinespens]

Dish will lose as the jury will all be Walking Dead fans who are pissed off Dish Subscribers

 

[jacmyoung]

Dish will lose as the jury will all be Walking Dead fans who are pissed off Dish Subscribers

Another excuse for a mistrial?

 

[primestar31]

Another excuse for a mistrial?

You should hope. However, it won't do you any good. Dish is going to lose, that's obvious.

 

[riffjim4069]

Dish will lose as the jury will all be Walking Dead fans who are pissed off Dish Subscribers

I would imagine the penetration rate is very low for Dish in NYC...especially with their lack of NY sports coverage.

 

[wallyhts]

You should hope. However, it won't do you any good. Dish is going to lose, that's obvious.

I'm on the fence if the judge does a default judgement then yes dish will lose. However no one knows what the jury will do court is so unpredictable.

I still miss my flipper in HD.

 

[mike123abc]

I'm on the fence if the judge does a default judgement then yes dish will lose. However no one knows what the jury will do court is so unpredictable.

I still miss my flipper in HD.

Unless it is in the judge's instructions all this stuff is not see by the jury anyways. The only thing we know for sure about is that they will be informed of the destroyed emails. If I were a juror I would probably be fairly forgiving of the deleted emails.