Decided to go from DiSEqC 1.2 to USAL, need a little help

[AcWxRadar]

Radar, I am working on a gadget that can be used to set the elevation of the dish itself. If you look closely at the picture I posted on Post #12, you will see the threaded rod I rigged up to work the declination of the dish itselt. It is ok, but time consuming as adjusting the bolts and all. Where the threaded rod is up to the fiberglass dish itself the dish just rest there. When I am trying to adjust the rod to finetune the dish, the end at the dish surface tends to do some dancing. Not a good way to acurately set the declination.
I am trying to find a threaded rod that has a doodad on the end that allow the threaded rod to rotate. Something called Acme rod? All I would do is to loosen the bolts of the motor, take a socket wrench, turn the rod until I get the signal needed, then tighten the motor bolts again.

I saw that right off in your pix. That is what I call the "Walrus Adapter". My brother (Walrus1956) made up a kit for Winegard dishes that provides the elevation adjustment without allowing the dish to fall when the elevation bolts are loosened. A great modification based on the design of the older Primestar dishes. You are applying the same idea. It is a godsend! I think most everyone realizes what a pain it is to make "fine" adjustments when the dish totally gets away from you. i.e "I just wanted to tweak it 0.1° and it went 15° right to the bottom!" <- That's my "Ah $#!t" face. LOL

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

LOL.
Someone at work suggested a turn buckle. NOW my mind is ticking!!!
Went to Walmart and bought one...
If I can replace the old rod with this turn buckle it will work!
If I need to fine tune the dish itself, just turn the turn buckle and the dish will move, slowly and ACCURATE!

 

[GreatFTA]

I will show pictures if this by the weekend!

 

[AcWxRadar]

Cool! I am looking forward to seeing it!

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

Hit a little snag on the turn buckle ideal..
I need to find a left threaded bolt and nut to make this work. So, I will have to wait till Monday to get one. Nobody here sells them and the main place most are suggesting to go to was closed for the weekend.

 

[Cham]

Make sure you get a lock nut for each end of the turnbuckle; one would be left-handed thread of course.
Should work great!
-C.

 

[GreatFTA]

Well, so much for the turn buckle idea.
Can't find any left threaded bolts or nuts for what I am trying to do.
So, I scraped that for now.
I found something even BETTER!
Show you guys tomorrow when i am finished. It is working great, just need a stronger L shape medal for this to work.

 

[GreatFTA]

Ok, I think I found the source of the tracking of the arc problem. I modified my mount to where I can go east and west on the pole, and just modified the elevation of my dish. In a few days I will post pictures of my project.
The source of my problem: I noticed there is a play on the arm of my SG2100. It is so loose I can wiggle it with my hand. Could this be the reason I am not tracking the arc using D 1.2 and USAL? I think there is a thread on how to adjust the play of the arm.

 

[AcWxRadar]

The source of my problem: I noticed there is a play on the arm of my SG2100. It is so loose I can wiggle it with my hand. Could this be the reason I am not tracking the arc using D 1.2 and USAL? I think there is a thread on how to adjust the play of the arm.

That play in the gear mesh can make tracking difficult to set up as the motor won't come to rest at the same position when coming from the east to a satellite position vs coming from the west to the same satellite position. The same is true if the gear mesh is too tight. Of course, if it is much too tight, the motor will stall and possibly fault out due to overcurrent.

If you can acquire special connectors to change from F-type to banana jacks, then you can insert an ammeter in-line and monitor the current draw of the motor. You want to set the gear mesh / backlash as tight as you can without exceeding 350 mA maximum under load. A higher peak or inrush current is allowed, but it should not exceed 350 mA when the motor is in motion.

Also, on the motor tube - where it attaches to the stem protruding from the motor housing - there shouldn't be ANY play here at all. I had an SG-2100 where the play here was excessive and I could not tighten the bolt sufficiently to remove the play. I inserted some brass shim stock to take up the play.

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

I was going to replace the SG2100 (Moteck) with the one I bought from Sadoun over a year ago (for $25) but when I went to the dish with it, I noticed the housing is far different than the original SG2100.
So I have to figure out how to remove that play. I got the instructions to do that.
If I tighten the dish and mount after tracking some satellites it would pull the dish somewhat out of alignment thus causing the dish not to track the arc correctly.

 

[GreatFTA]

Dish Motor Mount Situation

This problem is directed at RADAR but if any of you guys can help figure this out, I welcome any suggestions.
I recently created a mount for my SG2100 and the Primestar 1.2 dish. I used parts from a old Primestar dish (Mount cap that sides onto the pole), the adjusting screw used by Primestar to adjust the elevation of dish, the motor mount bracket of the SG2100, and some other odds and ends.
As stated earlier, I did this so I could adjust the Azimuth and elevation of the dish with ease. I always hated using the U bolts that the SG2100 uses because it is a pain to set the Azimuth while the whole thing wanted to wrestle it way down the pole and the twisting of the motor mount. Yall know the drill.
I took the motor mount bracket, remove the U bolts and after carefully centering it to the Primestar mount cap, had it welded. Now all I would have to do is to untighten the three bolts, and with the handles I had installed at the top of the cap, gently turn the dish east and west to find a satellite during setup, Work great!!!
Then I created a treaded rod system that is bolted to the side of the SG2100 tube and mounted on the dish frame. I can adjust the elevation of the dish using a rachet wrench or just a open end wrench, That work great too!!!
With the pictures I posted here you will see the results.
I am having problems aligning the dish.
Radar, I have pictures showing how plumb the pole is. Everything is plumb except for the SG2100 motor mount bracket that is welded to the dish mount. Apparently the person who welded the bracket to the mount cap bumped it causing it to be off with the level. The digital level shows that the bracket is like 86 degrees. The mount cap on the pole is leveled with the pole.
I noticed that when I set the latitude on the SG2100 bracket (34 degrees) the other side should be resting at 57 degrees. But it is not. It was like that BEFORE I created this project. I believe that the bracket is twisted, It was like that back when I bought the Moteck SG2100.
So I figured I have a bracket that may not be welded level with the mount cap and that the bracket was twisted.
Radar, when I went to your guide on installing the motorized dish systems, you have mentioned about the possibilities of the motor bracket may be flawed,
Look at these pictures. Is it possible to work around all this so I can properly track the arc, or am I going to have to redo the bracket/mount part?
I am still having a booger of a time tracking the arc.
Quick example: I can get the eastern satellite locked in during setup at dish. Using USAL I would go to most western satellite. I go east/west trying to get the satellite. Nothing. But when I use my elevation rod to adjust, I would get it in. I then go back to previous east satellite, would lose it. I adjust the elevation again to get back the satellite. I get it back. Go back to the west satellite, here I go again, I tried the azimuth method. Don't work.
What do you think?

 

[GreatFTA]

I meant to include this picture to show how the threaded rod technique work.

 

[GreatFTA]

I guess you would say I have a see saw effect between the east and west satellites as far as tuning them in. I know the dish is tracking from satellite to satellite as far as it suppose to do, If I get 97W tuned in, I can tune a few satellites either side, but by the time I get near the 125W I would lose it. If I adjust the elevation the 125W would be in great, and could tune in the close satellites until I get near the 97W birds. I would lose these birds.
I won't go any further until I get suggestions from you experts!
I am studying Radar's guide and other guides from other sites that will help me correct this problem.

 

[hd fan]

Are you sure the motor is set for 34N latitude?. I have no experience with that motor but the USALS STAB 90 has 2 scales, one for when you live in the southern US (or northern South America if you live south of the equator) the other one for us up north and it also is 1 degree accurate , I think. Now since your set up has a 4 degree mismatch between the perfectly plumb pole and the motor bracket (remember I ask you how can you guarantee it will end up welded perfectly?) you should fix that first. I am thinking you should then compensate that adjusting the motor latitude setting 4 degrees higher due to is looking down now 4 degrees more than needed. Keep the Dish elevation as per dishpointer.com . Ultimately the idea is to have the motor shaft at a particular angle for your latitude so to make it easier you should dismount the dish and adjust the motor with the level on the shaft till you hit that angle. Someone might chime in with the formula that relates latitude to final motor shaft angle for that particular motor.

Just a thought although, as usual, I could be wrong.

 

[GreatFTA]

HD, you read my mind! When I used the digital level on the sides of the SG2100 motor bracket it was pretty plump with the rest of the setup. The back of the bracket has a slight 4 degree offset from the mount cap (which is 90 degrees level). Using a inclination on it I can tip it in and out to see which direction the motor need to be adjusted. I haven't done this yet but in the morning I will adjust it like you just mentioned. I just hope that is all needed to be done.
Let you know how that goes...

 

[AcWxRadar]

MrFTAMan,

The first thing I don't like is what you are saying about the motor bracket being possibly bent. I would like to see pix of your digital inclinometer attached to the sides of the bracket. If the left side and the right side of the bracket read level (vertical) I would breath a sigh of relief! If the sides are 0.2° off from vertical or more, I would not feel comfortable with this setup. Obviously, no error from vertical would be desired, but I think you can fudge around a 0.1° error just fine. Anything more could be a critical deviation.

Next, let's assume that the sides of your motor bracket are perfectly vertical and the only error from vertical is that the bracket leans forward 3.3°. This is not a problem that will require you to start over, but your bracket latitude and elevation scales will forever be permanently incorrect.

Explanation: Since the mast is perfectly vertical all around, then the only error you have introduced is that you altered your latitude (and elevation) scale readings. If you rotate the bracket in the azimuth field, it takes this error with it to all positions (in other words, the error is always the same no matter what azimuth angle you set - that is good.

Once you have determined this error or the degree of offset, you will just have to apply that error as a correction factor (from your pix I calculate this as 3.3° or the difference between 90.0° and 86.7°).

If the bracket is leaning downwards as you go away from your mast, then you will have to add 3.3° to your latitude or subtract 3.3° from your elevation scale to set your motor angle properly. If the bracket is tipping back towards the mast, then you have to subtract 3.3° from the latitude or add 3.3° to the elevation.

That might seem to be a little confusing at first glance, but once you understand it, you won't have to relearn it. It will always be off that same amount and in the same direction.

Here is where I would remove the dish and ataching brackets from your motor tube and remove your motor tube... Then affix your digitial inclinometer to the underbelly of the motor, making absolutely certain that you get a good, flat surface to take a reading from. This reading will be your motor ELEVATION angle. So, subtract that from 90.0° to know your latitude angle. Do this and use it as your guide and ignore what the stamped latitude and elevation scales are telling you because they will now be incorrect.

Another item that I am a little "squeemish" on is your dish bracket attachment to the motor tube. In this case, I wish that they made H-H motors with square tubes that were perfect. A round tube allows for a mistake of a few degrees. The hole through the crossway center of the motor tube where the bracket attaches is very critical AND, if there is any degree of "slop" here, you can end up with yet another error.

To help explain the above, set the motor to the zero degree position (or home position). At this position, the vertical centerline of the dish reflector MUST be perfectly in line with the vertical axis of the motor tube. You do not want the dish reflector to be pointing 0.4° east when your motor tube is looking straight forward.

This error caught me when I was performing my first motorized dish installation. I didn't notice the error at first, because it was so slight and so subtle. I attempted to make an adjustment to the dish elevation while the motor was aimed somewhere to the east or west of dead center. During this process, the mass of the dish itself and our friend gravity naturally applied a sideways torque and pulled the dish's vertical axis away from the centerline of the motor tube. When I tightened the bolts back up after the adjustment was made, I created a new error for myself. When I went to the other side of the arc and attempted the same, the error was again a factor. This time it was pulling the dish off in the other direction and I fought this for a few hours until I happend to catch (by accident) the dish bracket twist slightly on the motor tube.

So, pay particularly close attention to this alignment and make all your dish elevation adjustments when the motor is at the zero or home position (in its center of travel). At this position, the center of gravity should pull the dish mostly straight down and not off to either side.

Well, there was some good news and some bad news in everything I just mentioned above. Now for the really good news... Your modifications look really swell! You did an excellent job with the principle engineering and design and I really like it. In theory and in an ideal world, it is an awesome and luxurious mod. In reality, there are some items that you need to confirm for accuracy (everything that I mentioned previously).

You've got it all down pat and looking good, you just have to refine it and ensure (doublecheck) everything.

The worst thing I can think of for your mod is that the motor bracket is tilted east or west or warped or bowed. If it is square and only leaning forward or aft, you should be alright.

I hope that you are able to follow everything that I have tried to cover here. Give it a while to soak in and re-read it a few times while you are actually looking at your equipment. You should see most of the things that I am trying to point out eventually.

Good luck and have FUN! Remember my motto... Keep it a hobby and if it starts to seem like work, then quit! Come back later with a clear mind and a new lease.

RADAR

 

[GreatFTA]

Thanks Radar!
As I mentioned I believe that the SG2100 motor mount bracket is not made right. According to the SG2100 HH manual, the elevation settings are 33 and 57 on the bracket. But when I set the Latitude at 33, the other side would not rest at 57. It would be off a few degrees. Being a newbie at the time, I thought nothing about it. I had been using DiSEqC 1.2 on all receivers until I got the AZBox Ultra.
The twisted bracket apparently came back to haunt me when I created the mount project.
You were right in the Ku motorized setup guide you created last year about the possibility of the motor bracket being weak and flimsy.
I believe I can overcome this when I reset the 3.3 degrees difference. I will tackle this as soon I go outside in a few minutes.
I will recheck everything, especially the centerline part of the tube.
With the additional info you just gave me, I now know how to check everything else.
Thanks, Radar!
Will be back in touch in a little while.

 

[GreatFTA]

BINGO!!!
Got somewhere! Thanks HD and Radar!
I went back thru the whole check-over of my project and redone the elevation settings on the motor bracket. I had to lower the motor 3.5 degrees to compensate the leaning bracket, maybe a tab more. I went ahead and replaced the rusted bolts on the bracket and motor.
Now the dish is tracking the arc!!!
Still need to re-tune some more but now the winds from the south is a little strong. So I will do that around Thanksgiving Day or by weekend.
Thanks guys. Keep up the great work on your tutorials, Radar. That one on the ku motorized dish setup has helped me during the setup of this project.

 

[AcWxRadar]

BINGO!!!
Got somewhere! Thanks HD and Radar!
Now the dish is tracking the arc!!!Thanks guys. Keep up the great work on your tutorials, Radar. That one on the ku motorized dish setup has helped me during the setup of this project.

Excellent!

It feels pretty good when you obtain some positive results, doesn't it?

Now you at least have some good signals to really work with. You need good signals from a few good satellites to work with so that you can start plotting some of your results and readjust your alignments as necessary. You can now refine your alignment to cover the entire arc that your motor, USALS or DiSEqC 1.2 and the LOS available to your location will allow you to cover.

You should eventually be able to track every satellite that is +/- 59° from your sites longitude with USALS and up to ~66° +/- using DiSEqC 1.2 motor positioning.

RADAR

 

[hd fan]

Did you lower the motor or did you moved it upwards. As per your pictures I was under the impression that you had to raise the motor 3.3 degrees. I am obviously glad you are tracking the arc , well ..... your dish not you, lol. For a perfect system if you slightly bump the dish up or down at both ends of the arc the signal should always go down a bit, if taht is the case then forget about touching it no matter how it looks and enjoy.