CBS Seeks to Unwind Retrans Agreement With Dish Network

[goaliebob99]

There are 2 sides to that coin. How long can the cable channels go without carriage, if they pulled themselves off. Viacom was losing a lot of money while their 20 or so channels were off of Directv last year. They can b*tch and moan all they want in court and to the media, but they won't willingly pull their programming for very long.

Yes that may be the case, but in this case if the court rules that CBS's contract is void, the rest of the networks can follow suite and pull thier stuff off at the same time wich would effectively kill dish. They wouldn't have to worry about this as all of the programming is already on other providers and people would switch.

 

[GaryPen]

They can as the copy of that program was not from an approve outlet for their property and you didnt pay for it. The networks makes money from HULU or their own websites. It's their property, so if they want you to see it, it is in their own right to put it where they want. They legally could go after you and have done so in the past!

Nope. It is perfectly legal to record it for one's personal use, and to use fast-forwarding or skip-ahead technology to avoid seeing the commercials, as long as the original recording was obtained through legitimate means (OTA, cable, sat, iptv, etc).

 

[GaryPen]

It's simple... They own the programming. They can ask what they want for it. They own a recipe to a cheeseburger (programming) and they can charge what ever they feel the value is for it.

And, after a consumer buys that cheeseburger (programming), he is free to remove the pickles (commercials), if he so desires. He is not required to eat(watch) it exactly as they served (broadcast) it.

 

[goaliebob99]

No, they do not. You are wrong. The Supreme Court has held that time-shifting with a VCR qualified as fair use, which courts have upheld in more recent cases to include DVR's, most notably Tivo.

No I am not! Yes while time shifting is legal, the content is still owned by CBS and they can put record once flags on their content and set expirations. TIVO's do that now! If you go to record a UFC PPV on your tivo, it will be off your DVR in two hours because the UFC sets a flag that the content expires in two hours. It's apart of what they negotiated in their distribution contract. The content is CBS's and under fair use your allowed to view it or shift it, but if CBS says you can only view it for a period, then poof its gone. Its very different set of rules when the content is digital versus tape.

 

[goaliebob99]

Nope. It is perfectly legal to record it for one's personal use, and to use fast-forwarding or skip-ahead technology to avoid seeing the commercials.

That's very true up to a point.. Dish cant decide if you want one or three pickles, or have an automatic way of removing them. Also because the content is a digital pickle, it does not follow the same rules as an analoge pickle on tape.

 

[osu1991]

I could even see the networks compensating local affiliates for lost retransmission earnings (by forgiving their fees to the network) if the agree not to renew with Dish unless Dish drops autohop.

That would be called collusion

 

[osu1991]

No I am not! Yes while time shifting is legal, the content is still owned by CBS and they can put record once flags on their content and set expirations. TIVO's do that now! If you go to record a UFC PPV on your tivo, it will be off your DVR in two hours because the UFC sets a flag that the content expires in two hours. It's apart of what they negotiated in their distribution contract. The content is CBS's and under fair use your allowed to view it or shift it, but if CBS says you can only view it for a period, then poof its gone. Its very different set of rules when the content is digital versus tape.

Just to be clear. CBS does NOT own all the content. They have distribution rights to it. Most of it is owned by the production companies that create the shows and they can take it to another network or platform should they choose.

 

[goaliebob99]

Just to be clear. CBS does NOT own all the content. They have distribution rights to it. Most of it is owned by the production companies that create the shows and they can take it to another network or platform should they choose.

That is true, but for simplistic sake I was claiming that CBS owns the content. Majority of the networks own the studios / production company's and later resell it to other networks. So the chances of a production moving from CBS to lets say NBC would be rare, and in this case, I dont see any distribution rights changing that would cause a mass exodus from any network like CBS, NBC, ect.

 

[Tampa8]

If this continues in court, it will not be about time shifting or skipping commercials, as GaryPen points out that has already been determined to be legal, that the networks do not own the programming to that extent nor can enforce what the consumer does regarding skipping and recording for their own use. They are going to try and show Dish, not the consumer is altering the presentation of the material.

 

[GaryPen]

No I am not! Yes while time shifting is legal, the content is still owned by CBS and they can put record once flags on their content and set expirations.

You will need to site the relevant laws, as the only recording flags I am aware of is with PPV content. Standard broadcast content can be recorded, saved, and viewed indefinitely, and with commercials skipped, as long as it is for private, non-commercial, personal use.

If broadcasters are flagging their programming to not record, or automatically expire, then they are most likely breaking the law.

 

[goaliebob99]

If this continues in court, it will not be about time shifting or skipping commercials, as GaryPen points out that has already been determined to be legal, that the networks do not own the programming to that extent nor can enforce what the consumer does regarding skipping and recording for their own use. They are going to try and show Dish, not the consumer is altering the presentation of the material.

Correct, they are saying that dish should simply pass along and let the consumer choose what to do with it what they please. Dish is only the middle man and shouldn't automate how the viewer sees their programming, even if it is an option in a menu.

 

[Tampa8]

We agree. Now can the Networks win that? Is that materially different than what is now done?

 

[GaryPen]

If this continues in court, it will not be about time shifting or skipping commercials, as GaryPen points out that has already been determined to be legal, that the networks do not own the programming to that extent nor can enforce what the consumer does regarding skipping and recording for their own use. They are going to try and show Dish, not the consumer is altering the presentation of the material.

They would lose, just as the broadcaster/plaintiffs lost against Cablevision for their "remote DVR", wherein the hdd was located at a central server at the head end, and the consumer viewed the content via a client in the home. (Coincidentally, that technology was also able to auto-skip commercials.)

This went all the way to the SCOTUS, where they refused to hear the appeal of the plaintiffs. So, it's pretty much a done deal, I'd say.

 

[goaliebob99]

You will need to site the relevant laws, as the only recording flags I am aware of is with PPV content. Standard broadcast content can be recorded, saved, and viewed indefinitely, and with commercials skipped, as long as it is for private, non-commercial, personal use.

If broadcasters are flagging their programming to not record, or automatically expire, then they are most likely breaking the law.

NO such law exists saying that they cant flag the content they own as they own the platform methods that you use to view the programming (up to a point) and the contracts that you agree to to view it, when you pay for the content. HBO uses flags as well and any cable channel can. See the broadcast flag wikipedia page for background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag It's what ever the broadcasters contract as far as distribution of their programming. They can flag it and set it to expire as they please. Enforcement of the flag was dropped from per FCC for manufactures of end user equipment. Bet your bottom dollar that the networks have something in their contract saying they can flag content or set expiration as they see fit.

 

[GaryPen]

NO such law exists saying that they cant flag the content they own as they own the platform methods that you use to view the programming (up to a point) and the contracts that you agree to to view it, when you pay for the content. HBO uses flags as well and any cable channel can. See the broadcast flag wikipedia page for background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag It's what ever the broadcasters contract as far as distribution of their programming. They can flag it and set it to expire as they please.

The technology is such that the flag can be for whatever they want it to be. But, by law (and there are such laws) they cannot prevent you from recording to a self-contained device viewable only by you (hence the encryption tied to the account holder with EHD's), nor can they limit the amount of time the recording can be saved, except with PPV programs, as you are agreeing to purchase for one-time use.

Premium content providers, such as HBO, may be in a grey area. I'd have to research further into their terms of use agreements. But, general content providers, especially broadcasters whose content is available OTA, cannot put such restrictions on recording without breaking the law. You, and they, may wish otherwise. But, that's the way it is.

 

[goaliebob99]

The technology is such that the flag can be for whatever they want it to be. But, by law (and there are such laws) they cannot prevent you from recording to a self-contained device viewable only by you (hence the encryption tied to the account holder with EHD's), nor can they limit the amount of time the recording can be saved, except with PPV programs, as you are agreeing to purchase for one-time use.

Premium content providers, such as HBO, may be in a grey area. I'd have to research further into their terms of use agreements. But, general content providers, especially broadcasters whose content is available OTA, cannot put such restrictions on recording without breaking the law. You, and they, may wish otherwise. But, that's the way it is.

By purchasing the programming you pay your TV Provider you are agreeing to the terms set forth and flags that come with it. The only exception possibly would be OTA broadcast wich are on a different platform than satellite delivery. Because the platform and transmission / delivery is different, the rules are different. Thats what you dont get! Different platforms have different rules. Because dish picks up the OTA signal, as per an agreement with the broadcaster, the broadcaster can require content flags because the method of delivery is different.

 

[GaryPen]

By purchasing the programming you pay your TV Provider you are agreeing to the terms set forth and flags that come with it. The only exception possibly would be OTA broadcast wich are on a different platform than satellite delivery. Because the platform and transmission / delivery is different, the rules are different. Thats what you dont get! Different platforms have different rules. Because dish picks up the OTA signal, as per an agreement with the broadcaster, the broadcaster can require content flags because the method of delivery is different.

Just because you wish it to be so, doesn't make it so. I'm not sure why you feel the need to defend and join the broadcasters POV. I can only assume you are in either the broadcast or advertising industries

The fair use rules, with respect to recording for personal use, apply to cable, satellite, and iptv methods of distribution. They do not apply, AFAIK, to streaming subscription methods or PPV. Perhaps, someday, the cable/sat/iptv rules will become more like what is seen in the streaming space. I have a feeling it may move in the other direction, though, with streaming subscriptions being treated more like cable/sat/iptv from a copyright perspective.

 

[The Fat Man]

All I have to say is that WBZ (CBS O&O) comes in excellent via OTA. WSBK doesn't; however, as long as QUAM still exists for cable, Comcast will have me covered.

 

[dare2be]

http://w2.eff.org/IP/pnp/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf

Federal Communications Commission FCC 03-225


V. D. Limits on Copy Protection Encoding

65. The final component of the proposed encoding rules is comprised of caps on the
level of copy protection that may apply to various categories of MVPD programming.
These proposed caps do not obligate the encoding of programming with copy restrictions, nor do they
prescribe a specific level of copy protection for particular programs. MVPDs would remain free
to negotiate with content providers for any level of encoding that falls below or is equal to the
applicable cap for the relevant programming category, which is referred to in the draft rules as a
“Defined Business Model.”
The defined business models and corresponding copy protection
caps proposed in the draft rules include:
(1) Unencrypted broadcast television – no copy restrictions may be imposed;
(2) Pay television, non-premium subscription television, and free conditional access
delivery transmissions – one generation of copies is the most stringent restriction
that may be imposed; and
(3) VOD, PPV, or Subscription-on-Demand transmissions – no copies is the most
stringent restriction that may be imposed, however, even when no copies are
allowed, such content may be paused up to 90 minutes from its initial
transmission.

_____

Sure does seem to fly in the face of fair-use laws, doesn't it?

 

[mike123abc]

http://w2.eff.org/IP/pnp/FCC_PnP_Ruling.pdf

Federal Communications Commission FCC 03-225


V. D. Limits on Copy Protection Encoding


The defined business models and corresponding copy protection
caps proposed in the draft rules include:
(1) Unencrypted broadcast television – no copy restrictions may be imposed;

_____

Sure does seem to fly in the face of fair-use laws, doesn't it?

Note CBS is an unencrypted broadcast television provider. No copy restrictions can be imposed.

But, there is nothing requiring CBS to allow Dish to retransmit their signal. In fact the satellite television act says CBS can either force Dish to carry their channel (must carry) or charge if they want. It does not put restrictions on terms and condition of what the broadcaster can charge. As a condition of carriage CBS could insist that Dish or Dish's equipment in no way automate commercial skipping. Dish could manufacture an OTA box which the customer could use and that box could skip commercials and CBS would have no recourse since the signal was received OTA.