Best Way to Receive Whole Ku Arc With Fixed Dishes?

[linuxman]

zipties can be your friend

Wouldn't help in my case, it's usually the coax line I drag out of the basement to connect to the portable TV, or the bright orange extension cord. All the coax from the dishes are nailed to the wall where I can't insert a foot!

That last line sure is the truth, many a time I've thought: "there, that's it", but then it's not too long until I think of some other re-arrangement, refinement, or addition to "improve" things!

Looking at the photos of your roof, with all the loose coax you have, I'm sure you definitely have to walk very carefully while up there, or a coax line might snare you and send you off the roof! I know from experience that on the ground I've nearly killed myself/equipment when a coax line or extension cord has reached out to grab my foot!

Yes, zipties are my friends, just didn't have time yet to tie it all up until today.

I had a window of no rain for about 2 hours, so my son and I climbed up and spent a little over an hour up there. While I was fine-tuning 83W a little, I assigned him the job of tying up the loose coax and putting them into nice straight bundles.

He probably used up 50 wire ties, but it is treacherous trying to walk around with all those cable trying to reach up and grab me.

Yeah Keith, the re-arrangement, refinement, or addition to "improve" things is all part of it. Never seems to be "finished".

Stogie coined a phrase the other day which I thought was funny. We were talking about fine-tuning dishes, and Stogie said, "yeah, you have to join the Linuxman tune till you puke club" before it is really tuned in.

Naturally Stogie has taken the class with me, so he knows.

That's part of the reason I am so slow, other than being old, fat, and worn out. I just can't get past "good enough".

 

[Keith Brannen]

Stogie coined a phrase the other day which I thought was funny. We were talking about fine-tuning dishes, and Stogie said, "yeah, you have to join the Linuxman tune till you puke club" before it is really tuned in.

Naturally Stogie has taken the class with me, so he knows.

That's part of the reason I am so slow, other than being old, fat, and worn out. I just can't get past "good enough".

I think that is part of the addiction of this so-called hobby. For example, when you channel surf do you check signal quality before you check out what show is on? I am always doing that.

Of course, the urge breaking out the wrenches to tweak can be a liability, as I well know (and here are just a few examples):
1) Either you can't improve it (and still spend lots of time trying), or
2) Screw up completely and can't get back to the quality you had when you started, or
3) By tweaking it better you mess up one of the channels that you do watch (the one you were trying to improve is one you rarely or never watch), or
4) Unbeknownst to you, the uplink has faded while you are tweaking, which brings number 2 into play!

I am slowly learning when to say "good enough" (usually just not soon enough)! However, it doesn't stop me from going out later to see if a minor (and I do mean minor) tweak won't help! Yesterday was a good example, I added a LNB for INT9 (58) which involved some adjustment to the brackets/LNBs I had on the dish. Anyhow, it was taking longer than I expected (a few problems cropped up that I hadn't expected), and I was getting hot on the roof since the cloudy day was becoming sunny. Anyhow, when I got 45 quality on the transponder on the satellite and it didn't look like I could get much more I said "good enough". However, later in the day I noticed the quality had improved a bit and it now was jumping up to 60. Naturally, out came the ladder, back up on the roof, and with minor adjustments (which did take a bit of time) I got it so there was less fluctuation and it was spending more time at 60 than below it!

 

[stogie5150]

Naturally Stogie has taken the class with me, so he knows.

He had me so flustered I was cursing the Midwest in general, not just Missourians....

Just when I thought I had it right....I'd make the phone call, tell him what I had....and then I'd hear,

Him: "you're not there yet."

Me: "WHAT?"

Him: "There's still more signal there, you don't have something right yet."

Me: "But I have done everything, this, and this, and this, and that's all there is!"

Him: "nope. there more signal on that TP. Keep at it. Check everything again. I have 86q on that TP with my dish with the same LNB. You need to check everything. If something isn't right, just ONE thing you are not going to get it."

Me: "but...but....but....&&$&#*^$%$(@*$&^#*&@()*$&^$)*&!"

Him: "Call me back after you check again and let me know what you find. I BET its X causing your trouble."

Me:"*(&*()&%(&^$@#(*&)(*^*&% "

Me: <click>

And so it went....And, he was ALWAYS right in the end. DON'T make the mistake of messing with the LinuxGuy...least when it comes to aiming dishes......Sheese.....

 

[linuxman]

Last Thursday, I managed to get my "DBS" Dish up and operational. I had the extra dish and LNBFs, so I figured "Why Not"? You never know what will pop in there.

So this dish has 148, 129, 119, and 110 on it. You can see from the side shot how far the 110 lnbf has to move in and point upward to catch the signal.

I don't know what direction I should move it on the holder to make the feed more vertical. If some of you have an idea, I'd like to hear it. It gets good signal like it is, but looks weird, and I am sure snow on the face this winter wouldn't be too good.

It rained 3 days straight, then turned off in the 90's and is supposed to be lower 70's tomorrow and dry, with a repeat on Friday. I hope to finish this project by then.

Tomorrow, I hope to get 72W and 77W Ku on one dish finished, and Friday I hope to get 99W and 103W Ku on another dish finished.

Then the project will be done. :up

Here are the pics with 99-95 C-Band thrown in along with tied up cables.

 

[Keith Brannen]

So this dish has 148, 129, 119, and 110 on it. You can see from the side shot how far the 110 lnbf has to move in and point upward to catch the signal.

I don't know what direction I should move it on the holder to make the feed more vertical. If some of you have an idea, I'd like to hear it. It gets good signal like it is, but looks weird, and I am sure snow on the face this winter wouldn't be too good.

I can see what the problem, or actually the reason, is for it, and might have a solution. First off, since the bar you are attaching the LNBs to is not bent to conform to the dish, but is straight, is part of the reason, as the LNB has to be closer to the dish in relation to the other LNBs. Secondly, the method of attaching the LNB with the long threaded bolt, since you have to move the LNB closer to the dish, causes the LNB to tilt upwards.

A solution would be to attach a short bar parallel to the one you have but a couple of inches closer to the dish, and then when you hang the LNB down it be on less of an angle. I would use the same clamps you are using to attach the LNBs to add the parallel bar (say two or may be three clamps on each bar and using the threaded bolts to adjust the distance. You may even want to angle the second bar down closer to where the LNB will be to increase stability.

It may take a bit of time to adjust the bar and LNB to get the best angle and signal, but I understand that you might have the patience for such a arduous task!

 

[linuxman]

I can see what the problem, or actually the reason, is for it, and might have a solution. First off, since the bar you are attaching the LNBs to is not bent to conform to the dish, but is straight, is part of the reason, as the LNB has to be closer to the dish in relation to the other LNBs. Secondly, the method of attaching the LNB with the long threaded bolt, since you have to move the LNB closer to the dish, causes the LNB to tilt upwards.

A solution would be to attach a short bar parallel to the one you have but a couple of inches closer to the dish, and then when you hang the LNB down it be on less of an angle. I would use the same clamps you are using to attach the LNBs to add the parallel bar (say two or may be three clamps on each bar and using the threaded bolts to adjust the distance. You may even want to angle the second bar down closer to where the LNB will be to increase stability.

It may take a bit of time to adjust the bar and LNB to get the best angle and signal, but I understand that you might have the patience for such a arduous task!

Thanks Keith, I knew you would have an answer for me.

I plan on further tweaking each dish in the fall. Right now the weather is moving towards hot, so I don't have a lot of time for final tweaking, but hopefully by then when the weather gets cooler again I will be able to do it. I hope to buy a professional meter by then too. The problem is that I am so accustomed to seeing the actual channel to verify the satellite, I might have a difficult time adjusting to a Super Buddy. I think I might like a Trimax Sm-2500, so I'll be on the lookout for one of those. I also want to buy either the Vantage 1100S, or the AZBox sometime soon as well. I need to sell off a bunch of stuff before I can do either.

But I did have a nice day today, and a nice one forecast for tomorrow. I managed to get 72W and 77W setup today, and plan on 99W and 103W tomorrow.

BTW, that naked LNBF you see in the picture is what the Geosat Pro SL2 looks like without it's plastic cover.

Then this project will finally be completed. Whew!!!

Here are today's pics:

 

[Keith Brannen]

But I did have a nice day today, and a nice one forecast for tomorrow. I managed to get 72W and 77W setup today, and plan on 99W and 103W tomorrow.

Then this project will finally be completed. Whew!!!

It has been quite an interesting journey from the beginning, and while "Phase One" will be "complete", I'm sure you'll be thinking of further additions/modifications in the not too distant future (like may be next week)!

 

[linuxman]

It has been quite an interesting journey from the beginning, and while "Phase One" will be "complete", I'm sure you'll be thinking of further additions/modifications in the not too distant future (like may be next week)!

You know me way too well my friend!

My wife and I just made a decision to cut back on our 4DTV viewing to using only one receiver. NPS informed me the other day that I could only renew my Fox News Sub one more time, so I renewed one receiver for a year, and am going to sell the DSR-922. So that does free up another C-Band dish already setup on the arc to add another C-Band satellite. More decisions! :yikes: Just have to lay my hands on another C2.

But as of today the main part of the project is finished. I made an un-successful attempt at using one of the dual holders that I got from SatelliteAV, but just couldn't make it work on the Primestar dish. You can see the pics below.

I ended up going the naked route for 99W and my standard holder for 103W. Got excellent signal on both birds.

I included pics of the whole dish farm except the Perfed Birdview. One little piece of it is showing on my left in one picture, but you have all seen it before.

For the record, I now have Dishes and LNBFs pointed at the following satellites:

On the Prodelin Dish:
121W Galaxy 23 C-Band
123W Galaxy 18 Ku
125W AMC 21 Ku
127W Galaxy 13 C-Band
129W Galaxy 27 Ku

Home-Made 6 foot C-Band Dish
107.3 Anik F1 C-Band

Geosat Pro 90 CM Dish
97W Galaxy 19 Ku
101W AMC 4 Ku

Birdview Perforated Dish C/Ku Orthomode Feed
91W Galaxy 17 Ku
91W Galaxy 17 C-Band

10 Foot Winegard Pinnacle Dish C-Band
87W AMC 3 C-Band

10 Foot Unimesh Dish C-Band C only Orthomode Feed
103W AMC1 C-Band

Motorized Birdview Solid Dish C/Ku Orthomode Feed
All other C-Band
All other Ku

7.5 Foot Perfect 10 Dish C-Band
99W Galaxy 16 C-Band

10 foot Perfect 10 Dish C-Band
95W Galaxy 3 C-Band

Primestar 84e Ku Dish 1
30W Hispasat Ku

Primestar 84e Ku Dish 2
83W AMC 9 Ku
89W Galaxy 28 Ku
74W Horizon 2 Ku

Primestar 84e Ku Dish 3 DBS
110W Echo 8 ?
119W Echo 7 ?
129W Echo 5 ?
148W Echo 1 ?

Primestar 84e Ku Dish 4
72W AMC 6 Ku
77W Echo 6 DBS ?

Primestar 84e Ku Dish 5
99W Galaxy 16 Ku
103W AMC 1 Ku

This is the material I have tied up in the project that I can remember:
12 Geosat Pro SL2 Dual Output Ku LNBFs
4 Standard Ku LNBs on the Ortho Feeds

6 Geosat Pro C2 Dual Ouput LNBFs
6 Standard C-Band LNBs on the Ortho Feeds

14 - 4X4 Multi-switches

12 - 1X4 Committed Diseqc switches

3 - Digiwave 1X8 Un-committed Diseqc Switches

Cable boxes
Grounding junctions
Grounding lugs
Approximately 250 snap-n-seal connectors
Approximately 2500 feet Solid Copper core RG-6 Coax
Several hundred Zip-ties with more to go.

Blood, Sweat, and yes a few tears when things didn't go right.

All on 8 C-Band sized dishes and 6 Ku sized dishes. I am counting the Prodelin as a C-Band sized dish.

It has been a wonderful experience working on this project. Those of you who have followed this thread, which I started on January 4 of this year have been on quite a journey with me.

We first started out with just using my Primestar 84e dishes, then the Prodelin Dish came along and changed that strategy somewhat, and then SatelliteAV offered the Dual Output C2 LNBF which again changed the project entirely. But it was for the best, because now I have both C and Ku on Bands non-moving dishes, and I get a good bit of the Arc with them.

I want to especially thank SatelliteAV for their outstanding products. The SL2 Dual output LNBFs, and the C2 Dual output LNBFs are have worked very well for me in this project. And I want to thank Brian personally for making the C2s available to us just in time to get in on this project.

I also want to thank all of you who gave encouragement and advice. While I am thanking everyone, I want to thank Keith Brannen who has always been my mentor in multi-satellite Dishes, Iceberg, and Anole for being my mentors with switches (lots of PMs to Iceberg in the beginning with questions like "How does that 22Khz switch thing work again"), and all the old timers (Gabshere, VoomVoom, Caddata, and Mike Kohl) here who taught me everything I know about receiving satellite signals.

That about wraps up the original project.

I or others would be happy to answer questions if you have them.

Thanks!!!!

Here are the un-successful holder pics for 99-103W:



Here are the successful holder pics for 99-103W:



Here are the Dish Farm pics:

 

[Keith Brannen]

Thanks for the photos, excellent work!

Glad I was able to be of some assistance in such a mammoth undertaking, definitely surpassing anything I have accomplished, or even contemplated! Reminds me of the Kung-fu line: "grasshopper, if you can snatch this pebble..." I'd definitely say you have the pebble and are miles away!

I still shudder at the thought of all the cabling to and from all the various switches you have had to do, knowing from my own experience how easy it is to make a minor cabling error which results in "hours of fun" to try and correct (until you realise what stupid thing you did)! Example from a couple of years ago: went to move a three LNB dish, labelled and removed two of the cables, moved the dish, reattached the two cables (wrongly reading the labels it seems), "hours of fun" trying to re-point the dish and figure out why peaking on any one satellite caused the loss of the others!

Anyhow, enjoy the fruits of your labour, it is well deserved!

 

[Smith P.]

Would be adding tilt plates to those multifeed dishes less troublesome way ?

 

[Anole]

the hard way works , too:

When Linuxman was putting 20 Ku LNBs on the 6' Prodelin, he had it pointed at his true south satellite.
So, no dish nor LNB skew was necessary for the central LNB.

When he re-aimed that beast with the center LNB off his TS, I asked if there was any way to skew the dish itself.
Later, I suggested he could benefit by making the LNB support bar run at a diagonal.
AND, K Brannen suggested tuning the LNB support, too!.

I've known some folks from that part of the country.
My Dad was from Missouri.
So, I'm acquainted with stubborn people. -

 

[linuxman]

Thanks for the photos, excellent work!

Glad I was able to be of some assistance in such a mammoth undertaking, definitely surpassing anything I have accomplished, or even contemplated! Reminds me of the Kung-fu line: "grasshopper, if you can snatch this pebble..." I'd definitely say you have the pebble and are miles away!

I still shudder at the thought of all the cabling to and from all the various switches you have had to do, knowing from my own experience how easy it is to make a minor cabling error which results in "hours of fun" to try and correct (until you realise what stupid thing you did)! Example from a couple of years ago: went to move a three LNB dish, labelled and removed two of the cables, moved the dish, reattached the two cables (wrongly reading the labels it seems), "hours of fun" trying to re-point the dish and figure out why peaking on any one satellite caused the loss of the others!

Anyhow, enjoy the fruits of your labour, it is well deserved!

Only had one mis-hap along the way, but it cost me some time trying to figure out why I was still getting 129W when I had supposedly moved the cable to 148.

I am enjoying the system immensely. It was well worth the trouble and expense. I can easily change well over 100 channels without ever moving a dish, and the categories that I have moved the channels into have helped my wife tremendously. She no longer calls me into the living room asking "how do you work this thing again?"

Would be adding tilt plates to those multifeed dishes less troublesome way ?

Yes, it would probably be easier that way. I am going to dig up some old threads here and see what other have used as swivels for the backs of Primestar dishes. I remember reading some posts a while back, but can remember right now where they are. I'll have to do some research, but that will probably be a fall project along with re-tuning everything.

When Linuxman was putting 20 Ku LNBs on the 6' Prodelin, he had it pointed at his true south satellite.
So, no dish nor LNB skew was necessary for the central LNB.

When he re-aimed that beast with the center LNB off his TS, I asked if there was any way to skew the dish itself.
Later, I suggested he could benefit by making the LNB support bar run at a diagonal.
AND, K Brannen suggested tuning the LNB support, too!.

I've known some folks from that part of the country.
My Dad was from Missouri.
So, I'm acquainted with stubborn people.

Yes, I am stubborn sometimes, but over the years, being stubborn in some cases has paid off for me big time.

There is something we need to remember.

I am just a Poor Country Boy from Lincoln County. I only know how to do things one way. If you want it done right, you have to do it my way. :

 

[Anole]

not that anyone cares:

If memory serves, there were some proponents of using a boat-seat swivel of some sort, to skew a dish.
It went for maybe 10 dollars (?) at the local hardware of sporting store.
Whether that would be up to the task of supporting a 6' Prodelin, I have no idea.

I thought about using one, but didn't see a good way to hold the dialed-in skew.
And in truth, it wasn't really necessary for my needs back then.

At least, that's one search word that should be rare in the FTA section: boat.

 

[linuxman]

If memory serves, there were some proponents of using a boat-seat swivel of some sort, to skew a dish.
It went for maybe 10 dollars (?) at the local hardware of sporting store.
Whether that would be up to the task of supporting a 6' Prodelin, I have no idea.

I thought about using one, but didn't see a good way to hold the dialed-in skew.
And in truth, it wasn't really necessary for my needs back then.

At least, that's one search word that should be rare in the FTA section: boat.

Well, I tried searching using the word "boat", and it is not as rare as we might think. I did find a thread with a reference to the "boat seat swivel" with a link to Cabela's in it here..

It's a shame, but there weren't any pictures of the modified Primestar using the boat seat, but it sounded like Primestar31 made it work.

I'll give it a shot in the fall and see what I can make it do. If it works out, I'll convert all the Primestars that aren't near the top to being skewed.

Thanks!!

 

[Anole]

need pictures:

... link to Cabela's in it here..

It's a shame, but there weren't any pictures of the modified Primestar using the boat seat, but it sounded like Primestar31 made it work.

Thanks!!

... and you can buy them at Walmart.

That swivel plate is available at Walmart....? Really? Worth a visit!
Here's a bit more discussion on what he did.

But, it looks like Primestar31 posted as recently as last Friday, so he's still around.
We just need to twist his arm for those pictures.
Probably should be a thread of its own. - :up

edit:
I just PM'd him.

 

[linuxman]

That swivel plate is available at Walmart....? Really? Worth a visit!
Here's a bit more discussion on what he did.

But, it looks like Primestar31 posted as recently as last Friday, so he's still around.
We just need to twist his arm for those pictures.
Probably should be a thread of its own. - :up

edit:
I just PM'd him.

The link to "a bit more discussion" isn't working. Hopefully someone can fix it.

 

[Anole]

You're right.
Click this instead:
primestar31
If not in this post, then above.

Think it's a change to the forum software since that long ago.
I'll see if I can get a proper link....

 

[primestar31]

That swivel plate is available at Walmart....? Really? Worth a visit!
Here's a bit more discussion on what he did.

But, it looks like Primestar31 posted as recently as last Friday, so he's still around.
We just need to twist his arm for those pictures.
Probably should be a thread of its own. - :up

edit:
I just PM'd him.

I'm not the originator of the idea, but I don't remember his name anymore. However, it's not magic, it's real easy. I bought my boat seat swivel bases from my local Walmart, for around $5 US at the time a few years ago. You have to slightly enlarge the oval holes in the swivel base first, and then they mate up to the bolt holes on a Primestar dish perfectly.

You then simply remove the fiberglas reflector from the metal elevation mount by removing the 4 bolts, and bolt the fiberglas reflector to ONE side of the swivel base (w/short bolts and flat washers). Then, the other side of the boat seat swivel base plate bolts to the metal elevation mount.

You then skew it the way you need to. When you get it where you want it, a drilled and tapped hole between the 2 plates and the elevation mount will take another bolt, that locks them together, and locks the dish in that position.

This might not be strong enough to do the same thing with a 6ft dish, if you are using an actual boat seat swivel, and not something engineered stronger for that size dish. Unless that dish was very light weight, say spun aluminum.

Also, I've included some pics showing how to use some EMT tubing, to make a new lnb mount. You then use electrical emt hangers, to mount lnbs along the tubing, where needed to get the sats you need.

 

[linuxman]

I'm not the originator of the idea, but I don't remember his name anymore. However, it's not magic, it's real easy. I bought my boat seat swivel bases from my local Walmart, for around $5 US at the time a few years ago. You have to slightly enlarge the oval holes in the swivel base first, and then they mate up to the bolt holes on a Primestar dish perfectly.

You then simply remove the fiberglas reflector from the metal elevation mount by removing the 4 bolts, and bolt the fiberglas reflector to ONE side of the swivel base (w/short bolts and flat washers). Then, the other side of the boat seat swivel base plate bolts to the metal elevation mount.

You then skew it the way you need to. When you get it where you want it, a drilled and tapped hole between the 2 plates and the elevation mount will take another bolt, that locks them together, and locks the dish in that position.

This might not be strong enough to do the same thing with a 6ft dish, if you are using an actual boat seat swivel, and not something engineered stronger for that size dish. Unless that dish was very light weight, say spun aluminum.

Also, I've included some pics showing how to use some EMT tubing, to make a new lnb mount. You then use electrical emt hangers, to mount lnbs along the tubing, where needed to get the sats you need.

Thank you very much!

It is a great idea, and I will make a trip to the local Walmart to see what I can find.

Probably won't put them on until Fall, but I will definitely give it a try.

As you said, I don't think it would work for the Prodelin 6 foot dish, but certainly for the 84es, it will work fine.

Thanks again! :up

 

[linuxman]

I have already to re-organize the system. The weatherman predicts 70s and dry for tomorrow through Sunday, and so I thought it would be an excellent time to make a few changes.

I have acquired another C2, and will mount it on my SAMI 10 foot dish that I recently became available since I sold the 4DTV unit, so I can add that dish to the system.

I have also come to the conclusion that my 8.5 foot solid Birdview will better serve my needs as a non-moving dish on 103W. I have recently discovered that there are some S2 signals out there that come in on the Birdview Solid, but there is not much wriggle room. With some S2 signals, "bigger is always better".

So with that in mind, I am going to turn my 10 foot mesh Unimesh into my motorized dish and have pulled my Mid-Sized AJAK H-H 180 out of storage for that purpose. I will be moving my Bullseye II C/Ku Orthomode from the Birdview Solid and putting it on the Unimesh. The MA/Com Orthomode C-Band will come off the Unimesh and go on the Birdview Solid.

The position on the roof where the Unimesh sets gives me a full LOS from the Horizon on the East, and about 148 on the West. Using the AJAK, I might be able to pick up some of the Atlantic satellites.

I talked to Mike Kohl today and asked him if he thought the Mid-Sized AJAK would be okay for a light dish like the Unimesh. He said he thought it would be fine. He also said the big AJAKs were for 10 foot heavy or 12 foot dishes.

The mid-sized model appears to have a lot more adjustability than the bigger model as well.

I will also be adding a few more Ku LNBFs and dishes as soon as cooler weather again becomes available.

Here are some pics of the AJAK Mid-Sized H-H 180 called the "Aimer":