BD standalones to be obsolete in the fall

[diogen]

Big difference between speculating on when it will be over, and posting (sometimes repeatedly) unsupported claims...

I don't see it this way.

Perhaps BD+ learned from this and hired genuine experts...

Read more about what BD+ is based on.

Previous encryptions were pathetic.

Do you know the difference between encryption and implementation?

If BD+ is not in fact put into use, it's because they discovered it could be easily hacked...

Nice backdoor you prepared...

Hope you can see the difference now.

No.

You aren't the worst.

Thanks.

Take care.
Diogen.

 

[JoeSp]

The PS3 supports 1.1 and there are more of those out there then all the others put together so Denon is not the only BD player capable of supporting 1.1. Also, I posted a very informative article on BD+ in the BD forum. I am very interested in seeing how long it takes the 'virtual machine' process of the code is to be cracked. Especially since a studio can change to code on every movie they convert to HD.

 

[jgantert]

And forget about Profile 2.0. I believe 200GB BD disks have a better chance to see the light of the day.

Stupid question, but is profile 2.0 the same as BD-Live?

-John

 

[diogen]

Stupid question, but is profile 2.0 the same as BD-Live?

Yes.

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

The PS3 supports 1.1...

BS. You should read BD scriptures more careful: PS3 might support Profile 1.1.

From paidgeek (1 week ago):

It is expected that the PS3 will have updates offered that can support profile 1.1 and even 2.0.
For current hardware players, it is unlikely that updates are coming to add profile 1.1 capability.
This is because profile 1.1 requires a higher level of hardware performance than current players are capable of.

Taken from the Bible of BD wisdom
Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - Insiders Thread

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

Stupid question, but is profile 2.0 the same as BD-Live?

-John

As Diogen stated, yes. And, AFAIK, there is no mandatory date for BD live implementation. I think it may be intended to be an optional performance level, for higher priced units. See Wiki.

 

[JoeSp]

I believe that the POW discs use some of the features of 1.1 and the PS3 has no problems playing any of the features on those discs. Also, Sony has been promising a major software update for movie playback in October. Expected is DTSHD-Master decodeing and full 1.1 compatiblity. We shall see.

As for the BD-Java 1.1 specs in October all Bd standalones after that must meet all the specs of BD-Java (including live) which includes 256kb of memory, 1gb of storage and an ethernet connection and a second video decoder. These are the requirements of BD- Java 2.0. If you go back and read the PC World article I posted you will see where all current players sold support BD-Java right now. The 256k of memory is where some are short (only 64kb in some) but they also have slots for memory cards and this might be a get around.

Either way you look at this the PS3 already has the hardware to support and provide these features. The question as you posed it is if Sony will allow the PS3 to do just that.

 

[mike123abc]

FOX is most likely waiting on the PC players to be updated with something more secure. Quite frankly it is the PC players that are causing all the problem, and I do not see a possible way out of it with the ability to emulate a PC. How does a player figure out that it is on an emulator and not a non hacked platform? They are going to have to do tons of mindless stuff to make the tracing so time consuming that people will give up before being able to pull out the AACS key...

 

[navychop]

Well, since it uses Java, that eliminates a lot of the cross platform problems. But you're right, there would seem to be firmware issues and the ability to have other running software snatch the video stream at some point.

Have there been any promises to be able to play Blu-ray on a PC?

 

[diogen]

...it is the PC players that are causing all the problem...

Quite true.
And both, Sony and Toshiba were the driving force behind licensing WinDVD and PowerDVD as HD/BD players under WinXP: to allow their laptops to play them.
Microsoft claimed that even under Vista (with its PMP - protected media path) it is very hard to write a secure player (i.e. to protect the decryption keys from snooping).
How PMP works you can see in the latest $5K PCs from Dell, HP and the like that do CableCard: customized version of Vista, PMP from source to display, signed customized video drivers and BIOS - and all that for a castrated one-way cable video communication. And you can't build such a PC yourself. "Smashing success" written all over it...

Now they can:
- ban XP as a playback OS
- ban PCs as a playback platform
In both cases AACS LA will be sued by Cyberlink and Intervideo and the last two will be sued by those that bought their players. Unlikely, I think.

And in the end it won't solve the problem anyway for any of the three reasons:
- keys can be extracted using the "trojan horse" known under the cryptic name PS3 (running Linux with a patched kernel);
- sniffing the USB bus between the 360 add-on and the PC you can find the keys without having a player running on the PC;
- AnyDVD can break the encryption on any hidef DVD - HD and BD - today and nobody knows exactly how they do it (unlike the transparent doom9 efforts).

Let's assume PCs are banned.
The only digital optical format that accomplished that was Sony's SACD. And everybody knows was a tremendous success that was.

FOX is most likely waiting on the PC players to be updated with something more secure.

You mean BD+? That's the consensus today. Will see how that plays out.

They are going to have to do tons of mindless stuff to make the tracing so time consuming that people will give up before being able to pull out the AACS key...

Like what?
If XP is allowed to play HD/BD, time needed to find the key will always be less then time needed to hide it.
And considering the AACS keys can be updated only once in 90 days there is very little you can do after the first title is decrypted...

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

"Smashing success" written all over it...

:up:up:haha:haha

 

[mike123abc]

Even the secure vista can be cracked with a good enough PC emulator. It is not practical, but every bit of hardware in a computer can be emulated, including the video cards, so how is the specially written driver supposed to know it is running on an emulator. One can even slow down real time, so if it tries to count the number of nops (or any other instruction) done in a certain period of time, it will get the correct answer.

Reminds me of problems I used to work on long ago with computer security, one had to assume the only safe computer was in a locked copper room with armed Marines guarding it. A piece of software has no way of telling if the hardware it is running on is real.

 

[diogen]

...every bit of hardware in a computer can be emulated...

PC emulation is not in the picture wrt to AACS hacking as implemented in HD/BD. And it doesn't need to be.
Here is the description of how it works
Understanding AACS (including Subset-Difference) - Doom9's Forum
And muslix64 showed how he stumbled upon the keys when analyzing the memory dump.

PCs (as a HD/BD playback platform) have to have the keys in memory at some point to be able to decrypt the movie. XP at the moment can't protect itself against a memory dump (Vista with PMP can). Knowing how the system works (AACS has a white paper) and having a WinXP player is enough to start the hunt.

It is not unlike satellite hacking: Dish uses the DVB standard and is hacked wide open using $50 DVB PCI cards. FTA are cheaper and better than Dish receivers.
DirecTV doesn't use DVB and never was hackable using PC. The same story in Canada (StarChoice vs. BEV).

BD+ (Fox was the only studio requesting it and BDA standardized it to win them over) details aren't known and might require some reverse engeneering. But it is known to be based on Cryptography Research work
Cryptography Research, Inc. Expands Team to Support Accelerated Business Development of Digital Content Protection Technology. | Business solutions from AllBusiness.com

The newer SoC-based HD/BD players from China are expected to have its RAM content encrypted at all time making them more secure (emulation might be the tool to hack those).

I believe AACS is hacked for good and BD+ won't save BD. Unlike satellite encryption, you can't change all players. And even if we assume the impossible - PCs are banned, I think PS3 is already vulnerable enough to continue chipping away from this armor.

The best DRM is hacked DRM!

Diogen.

 

[JoeSp]

I have a few simple questions for you Diogen -- Why champion hacking of encryption when that hacking can result in no HD media being sold or distributed? Why the continued infatuation with the ability to steal content from providers? Are these hackers the new Pirates of the 21st century? Are you one of these Pirates?

 

[diogen]

Why champion hacking of encryption when that hacking can result in no HD media being sold or distributed?

Because I believe in having rights to make a copy of what I buy in optical formats.
And not run into problems Google Video just created.
Google selleth then taketh away, proving the need for DRM circumvention

Why the continued infatuation with the ability to steal content from providers?

See above. I don't think decrypting=stealing.

Are these hackers the new Pirates of the 21st century?

Don't know.

Are you one of these Pirates?

No.

Any other questions?

Diogen.

EDIT:
FWIW, I was born and lived my first life in Europe and have Canada as my residence for the last 15 years.

 

[mike123abc]

It would be nice to be able to have a multi terabyte server stashed away (will become very cheap in the next few years) to copy all the movies and allow playback anywhere in the house from it. No need to go get the DVD, just pull up a menu of all your DVDs, HD-DVDs, BD, etc and pick the one you want to watch. Of course full player emulation on the disc image so you cannot tell you are playing off the image vs the disc.

The above would be great to have, but I think the rampant stealing/pirating of anything digital will keep it from happening. They will make everything so DRM restricted that legitmate users will be locked out.

 

[vurbano]

I thought you could already rip HD DVD and BD with slysoft products. SlySoft AnyDVD HD

Download
Buy now
AnyDVD HD comes with same functionality as AnyDVD, but with additional features for full HD-DVD (High Definition DVD) and Blu-Ray support, including decryption of HD-DVD & Blu-Ray movie discs.

Allows you to watch movies over a digital display connection, without HDCP compliant graphics card and HDCP compliant display. No need to buy an expensive monitor. Sweet!

Playback your discs on your PC with PowerDVD Ultra, which otherwise do not run (titles released by Studio Canal, The Weinstein Company, Kinowelt, Optimum Releasing).

AnyDVD HD is the "must have" utility for the serious home theater enthusiast using a media center / home theater PC.

Another amazing feature of AnyDVD HD is "magic file replacement ™". Remaster any commercial movie disc using simple XML scripts. These scripts will "magically" replace the files on the physical disc. You can customize discs as you like without even making a copy to harddisk!

AnyDVD comes with a UDF 2.5 file ripper, no need to install 3rd party UDF 2.5 filesystem under Windows XP.
Features HD-DVD

• Same features as regular AnyDVD
• Removes encryption (AACS) from HD-DVDs
• watch movies over digital display connection, without HDCP compliant graphics card and HDCP compliant display.
• playback of discs on the PC with PowerDVD Ultra, which otherwise do not run.
• Removes user prohibitions, you can select the language and subtitle track without going through the disc's menu.
• Removes parental restrictions.
• Allows you to remove or skip Studio Logos and warning messages.
• With "magic file replacement ™" you can remaster any commercial movie disc using simple XML scripts.
• The "must have" utility for the serious home theater enthusiast using a media center / home theater PC.
• Includes a UDF 2.5 file ripper, no need to install 3rd party UDF 2.5 filesystem under Windows XP.

Features Blu-Ray

• Same features as regular AnyDVD
• Removes encryption (AACS) from Blu-Ray DVDs
• Removes region codes from Blu-Ray DVDs
• watch movies over digital display connection, without HDCP compliant graphics card and HDCP compliant display.
• The "must have" utility for the serious home theater enthusiast using a media center / home theater PC.
• Includes a UDF 2.5 file ripper, no need to install 3rd party UDF 2.5 filesystem under Windows XP.

System Requirements

• IBM-compatible PC with a minimum 2 GHz Pentium-class microprocessor and 512 MB RAM
• Windows 98/98SE/ME/2000/XP/XP64/VISTA/VISTA64
• 2 MB hard-disk space
• For HD-DVD/BluRay media, a HD-DVD or BluRay compliant drive is required.
• AnyDVD HD required Windows 98 as the minimum OS for standard DVDs.
• For HD decryption / ripping the minimum OS is Windows 2000 (latest SP).
• PC Player software usually requires Windows XP SP2 as the minumum OS.

 

[John Kotches]

I thought you could already rip HD DVD and BD with slysoft products. SlySoft AnyDVD HD

... Everything else deleted ...

Will the Blu-ray rips work if/when they start using BD+? That's a big question mark at this time.

Cheers,

 

[diogen]

I thought you could already rip HD DVD and BD with slysoft products.

You can. For about 6 months now.
Can be done using free tools, too (more involved).

BD+ might through a wrench in this idillic state. But I think not for long.

Diogen.

 

[diogen]

It would be nice to be able to have a multi terabyte server stashed away (will become very cheap in the next few years) to copy all the movies and allow playback anywhere in the house from it.

This might become possible and even legal when AACS' final spec is approved and it contains (Mandatory) Managed Copy. But the copy will be DRM-ed to the hilt.

Diogen.