BD standalones to be obsolete in the fall

[vurbano]

Finally I Made My Decision - AVS Forum

I decided to ebay my Panasonic DMP-BD10A. I purchased the A20 and PS3 earlier today both at Best Buy and almost bought the Xbox 360 hd-dvd addon today at GameStop. The reason why that I am ebaying my Panny blu-ray player is that it would be obsolete in the fall when the new blu-ray profile is in effect and there might not play the latest bluray movies with the new profile. I am going to return the PS3 on Monday, because I am hearing a loud fan noise when playing movies on it, no good games yet until spring of 2008, and it is just pure spectulation that the PS3 will be updated with a firmware for blu-ray profile 1.1 but I do not if it is going happen. I might get the PS3 again when Sony releases the PS3 that runs cooler and fans don't run loud. I like my Xbox 360 Elite edition, because it has the best games out and I am glad that I did not buy the Xbox 360 addon, because I heard that it makes the xbox 360 fan louder since it requires more cpu power, and it does not have the advance audio decoders builtin.
The reasons why I got the A20 are:
1. Affordability
2. Excellent dvd upconversion
3. It has the final HD-DVD specifications, so no need to upgrade to a new player soon.
4. Excellent HD picture quality, even it excels in most blu-ray picture quality with the same movie.
5. Load time is decent for a 2nd generation unit.
The one thing that I miss on the A20 is the DTS-HD High Resolution Audio that was included in the Panasonic DMP-BD10A. But only a few blu-ray movies had the DTS-HD HR sound.
I hope that I will enjoy the A20 more than my soon to be obsolete blu-ray player. Now HD-DVD group must talk some of the exclusive blu-ray movie studios such as Disney, Fox, and Lionsgate to become neutral and it is unlikely that Sony will become neutral.

Wow glad I didnt spend money on one.

 

[JoeSp]

The AVS Forum is running over with misdirection on BD players and ablilities:

1)HD-DVD has the high ground on low prices for now. However, BD players can be had for close to $400 now and they support 1080p.

2)Both HD-DVD and BD players do upconversion and do it quite well.

3)No need to upgrade a BD player unless you want to play BD Java that will be coming on new releases in October. No way to know if current player you have will be upgradable as Manufacturers are not talking.

4) There is no perceive quality of HD-DVD over BluRay anymore and has not been since January -- if anything BD offers a higher bit rate of the same codec that HD-DVD uses -- make-up your own mine if that is important.

6) Load times are insignificant in purchasing a HD player. Unless it is the PS3 or 360 HD-DVD add-on load times are slower then regular DVD. As newer generations come out load time should improve.

The idea that a movie that offers BD-Java or BD-Live (2008?) will not play on a current BD player is just poppycock. The movie itself will play just fine. The reason most people buy a newer generation of movie player is that it offers newer features, more control and adjustments or is just plain faster with better video and audio reproduction. These are changes to be expected with a newer generation player. BD and HD-DVD new generation players are no differant.

 

[navychop]

Still beating an old dead horse and spreading misinformation, eh Vurbano? This has been discussed before.

For the benefit of new readers:
No Blu-ray player will be obsolete. They will all continue to play today's, and future, movies. The only difference is in playing extra features such as PiP and certain "interactives." They'll continue to do just what they were sold for- playing movies. Blu-ray continues to add features to their players. HD DVD has stopped. Granted, they were ahead in features, but Blu-ray features will soon be similar, and maybe greater in the future. If there's an HD DVD still around to compare to.

So maybe a similar thread title elsewhere would be: "HD DVD players will soon be obsolete" After all, the smart money is on Blu-ray taking the U.S. market and HD DVD "going away."

 

[SatinKzo]

I agree JoeSp. Seems to be some mis-informed people out there. Might be time locate panny BD player on ebay on the cheap. I'm not even a BD supporter and have and A2 at home, but if I find a deal, I'm all over it.

 

[navychop]

Yes. Some of the mislead are easily frightened.

Hardly matters. By year's end, it should be clear to the average person (among the ones interested in HDTV) that Blu-ray has "won." Emotional posting that it's wrong won't matter.

 

[diogen]

...By year's end, it should be clear to the average person (among the ones interested in HDTV) that Blu-ray has "won." Emotional posting that it's wrong won't matter.

Just wanted to save this for posterity...

Diogen.

 

[SatinKzo]

what is this dude talking about the PS3 fans being loud?

Geesh, nevermind, reading the rest of Kage's post, he's just rambling for the most part. My 360 HD-DVD add on did not make my 360 louder.

I wonder what HighDefJeff would have to say about all this HD talk. http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-hd-discussions/103567-what-no-one-will-tell-you-about-hdtv.html

 

[CochiseGuy]

For the benefit of new readers:
No Blu-ray player will be obsolete. They will all continue to play today's, and future, movies. The only difference is in playing extra features such as PiP and certain "interactives." They'll continue to do just what they were sold for- playing movies.

I agree - the players will not be "obsolete" - just Out of Date.
I just think it's a shame they're introducing new models just a month or two before the new required new features. I think it's obvious the new required features require a big increase in cost, so they're rushing models out the door that don't have them.
Meanwhile, while they're aggressively promoting players that don't support the new features, the studios are already incorporating the new features into movies that will be released this fall - from HighDefDigest.com:

Highlighted specifically in the clip are first looks at two features exclusive to the 'Cars' Blu-ray release. Stretching the format's BD-Java capabilities is the "Car Finder" game, allowing viewers to search for over 200 models of cars hidden throughout the movie, and even "race the clock" to find a specific car in a frozen frame of film.

Also touted is the "Cine-Explore" mode, where John Lasseter "personally guides you through the making of the movie while you watch the movie." Judging from the footage that appears in the trailer, the "Cine-Explore" function looks similar to the "In-Movie Experience" picture-in-picture video commentaries common to the HD DVD format, making 'Cars' among the first announced titles to replicate this much sought-after feature on Blu-ray.

I wouldn't be happy if I paid $500+ for a fancy new BD player this week, and Nov. 6 I pop in "Cars" only to find all those cool, jazzy interactive features promoted by Disney won't work on 3 month old player.

Blu-ray continues to add features to their players. HD DVD has stopped. Granted, they were ahead in features, but Blu-ray features will soon be similar, and maybe greater in the future.

Excuse me - How happy would you had been with DVD if they had kept adding "new features" that made you buy a new player every year or so to make use of them? HD DVD specs were finalized before the first player came off the assembly line. The BDA basically said "screw you" to their early customers when they rushed an unfinished product out the door so that HD DVD wouldn't enjoy the HD disc market all to itself. An the HD DVD specs were so advanced, they're still implemented & advanced - i.e., - "new features" (that don't require any new consumer investment). Like the "300" HD DVD with web enabled content, and a feature that let's me re-arrange the scenes in the movie and watch my own personalized version. And those features work perfectly on my "ancient" player that rolled off the assembly line in Feb, 2006.

 

[navychop]

Just wanted to save this for posterity...

Diogen.

OK, I've posted it in my calendar. Perhaps I'll be eating my words. Or perhaps you'll see things differently. Or perhaps we'll continue to each see things differently.

At 2:1, the "competition" continues. At 3:1 (sustained) it begins to come into serious doubt. At 4:1 how many retailers and other companies won't be considering bailing out, and at 5:1 do the fire sales knock it back down to 4:1? Titles, we're talking about, not players.

- - - - -

Out of date, yes. I've had out of date cell phones, computers, etc that I've gladly continued to use. I'd rather have a cell without all those "advanced" features.

"I wouldn't be happy if I paid $500+ for a fancy new BD player this week, and Nov. 6 I pop in "Cars" only to find all those cool, jazzy interactive features promoted by Disney won't work on 3 month old player. "
That's why I haven't bought one yet.

High Def discs are way beyond DVDs. They can fulfill some of the advanced expectations for ATSC, such as clicking on an item (clothing, car, restaurant meal) and getting web links and other info, or even to option to clickly and easily buy the item. Or get bio info on stars. Reservations. Vote on an issue (American Idol of 2010 is....). Or ..... (fill in the blank with some future development). I'd say the Blu-ray crowd started late, is still behind on player features, but recognizes that feature development will be an ongoing process.

 

[diogen]

... Or perhaps we'll continue to each see things differently.

That's what my bet would be on: today's status-quo will stay...
Unless, of course, Uni jumps ship... or something like this happens.

...High Def discs are way beyond DVDs. They can fulfill some of the advanced expectations...

That's the question: can those fulfilled expectations jumpstart HD/BD sales to drive them at least to 10% of DVD sales?

Diogen.

 

[vurbano]

Looks like many BD players simply will not meet the memory requirements of the new spec from post #13 there: Finally I Made My Decision - AVS Forum


Some info
Quote:
BD-Video 1.0:

64 KB of persistent memory required
no SD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required

BD-Live:

1 GB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet capability required

quoted from here

I am not sure why people think that an update will fix the issue with profile 1.1 when a hardware revision is need? However, I still don't understand why Profile 2.0 needs a whopping 1 gig of memory? In any case here are a few BDA's due to release:
Lite-On BDP-X1 1H 2007
Samsung BD-P1400 Sept. 2007
Samsung BD-P2400 Oct. 2007
Samsung BD-UP5000 Q4 2007
Samsung HT-BD2 Q4 2007
source

It's surprising that nothing is mentioned about the PS3 as of yet. How can anyone think that BDA has won this war is beyond comprehension! If most BDA owners currently have only 64 KB of persistent memory and profile 1.1 titles need around 256 KB of persistent memory why do they think their current players will work correctly? If it takes about 2 minutes to load up the interactive menu of POTC:TCBP why would they fair better with other titles? Doesn't this mean that the lead they currently have will end once they tell customers they need to buy a new BDA because the only ones (along with movie titles) will be revised? Wouldn't that mean they would start over from scratch once all their current inventory is converted over?

 

[vurbano]

Are there really BD players out there with only 64 KB of persistent memory??? I cant believe there are any that low?

 

[navychop]

"How can anyone think that BDA has won this war is beyond comprehension! "

Err- because Blu-ray titles outsell HD DVD 2 to 1? Because there are 5 times as many devices that can play Blu-ray as can play HD DVD? Because retailers are dropping HD DVD like crazy? Because the ONLY major studio to support HD DVD exclusively is Universal? Because there are more companies supporting Blu-ray hardware wise? Because Disney is exclusively Blu-ray? Because so many major titles will be released in Blu-ray exclusively between now and the end of the year? Because .....

Oh, doesn't matter. You've decided to "BELIEVE" in HD DVD and find it easy to label people who think otherwise as fan boys or clueless. Really doesn't matter, your attitude aside. Time will tell.

 

[JoeSp]

Well, as usual you HD-DVD guys have got it wrong again:

PC World - New Specs for Next-Generation Blu-ray Players

All BD players support BD-Java. Question is if they allow memory cards does that expand their ability to offer more features available under Java? HUMMMM?

Second, the PS3 DOES have a secondary video decorder! In fact it is all ready to support BD-Live -- if Sony will allow it (Remember the storage requirement is only 1GB):

PC World - Chart - High-Definition Players

And as for the availability of BD+:

Blu-ray content protection agency certifies BD+

BD+ is ready to use NOW and we will probably be seeing BD movies with BD+ in October with the new BD-Java features.

So much disinformation to correct -- how do you guys keep coming up with this junk?

 

[diogen]

Wouldn't that mean they would start over from scratch once all their current inventory is converted over?

It's much worse than that.
Talkstr8t (BD insider from AVS) confirmed a few months ago that after Nov.1/07 only newly designed BD players would have to support Profile 1.1.
BD player manufacturers can continue to sell their older non-compliant players (i.e. the ones that are sold now) for as long as they want.

At the moment, Denon ($2000) is the only one announced player that will support 1.1.
There were no official announcements about upgradability (firmware) of the existing players, PS3 included.
And forget about Profile 2.0. I believe 200GB BD disks have a better chance to see the light of the day.

The much more interesting component is BD+.
As has been noted more than once, without 1.1 support a BD player still can play the movie, released already or in the future.
But if today's player can't be upgraded to handle BD+, it won't play any BD+ disks at all.

BD+ is ready for months and still nobody uses it. And might not use it for a while.

Diogen.

 

[vurbano]

It's much worse than that.
Talkstr8t (BD insider from AVS) confirmed a few months ago that after Nov.1/07 only newly designed BD players would have to support Profile 1.1.
BD player manufacturers can continue to sell their older non-compliant players (i.e. the ones that are sold now) for as long as they want.

At the moment, Denon ($2000) is the only one announced player that will support 1.1.
There were no official announcements about upgradability (firmware) of the existing players, PS3 included.
And forget about Profile 2.0. I believe 200GB BD disks have a better chance to see the light of the day.

The much more interesting component is BD+.
As has been noted more than once, without 1.1 support a BD player still can play the movie, released already or in the future.
But if today's player can't be upgraded to handle BD+, it won't play any BD+ disks at all.

BD+ is ready for months and still nobody uses it. And might not use it for a while.

Diogen.

Finally someone with good info. A jewel amongst the BD trolls.

 

[navychop]

It's much worse than that.
Talkstr8t (BD insider from AVS) confirmed a few months ago that after Nov.1/07 only newly designed BD players would have to support Profile 1.1.
BD player manufacturers can continue to sell their older non-compliant players (i.e. the ones that are sold now) for as long as they want.

Old news. That's been known. Surely you are aware that many products are sold with varying features. Fewer features generally come with the lower priced models, as newer and more capable models hit the market. Profile 1.0 models will leave the market, just as DVD players that could not play recordable DVDs did.


And forget about Profile 2.0. I believe 200GB BD disks have a better chance to see the light of the day.

Yes, your most fervent hope.


The much more interesting component is BD+.
As has been noted more than once, without 1.1 support a BD player still can play the movie, released already or in the future.
But if today's player can't be upgraded to handle BD+, it won't play any BD+ disks at all.

Studios are waiting for BD+; it will certainly be used. And do you have any support for this idea that older players will not be able to support BD+? I doubt it, because the intention of releasing BD+ was always in the cards and players sold already may need a firmware update (kinda like HD DVD?) to play the new BD+ movies.

Introducing fear, uncertainty and doubt seem to be the current forte of HD DVD "true believers." Success seems to have been measured by getting some poor sap so worked up with fear he sold his Blu-ray player, thinking it wouldn't play movies after 10/31. Feel proud about that?

They're products not religious truths. Discussing what each can do makes sense. Creating worst case scenarios and preaching doom appears to others to be desperation. Don't confuse what you "want to hear" with "good info." And calling others Trolls makes the reader wonder if the name caller has a mirror.

High emotions will not affect the outcome. Place your bet, talk civilly, and wait it out. We'll know soon enough. Maybe around the end of the year, maybe next year.

 

[diogen]

navychop,-

I really appreciate your desire to keep this conversation civil, rational, objective, FUD-less, etc. But shouldn't you start with your own posts first?
How many times in the last month have you proclaimed - with some reservations, sometimes - that it will be over for HD this year, first half next year?
If this is not FUD - what is?

Studios are waiting for BD+; it will certainly be used.

"And do you have any support for this idea..."?

the intention of releasing BD+ was always in the cards and players sold already may need a firmware update (kinda like HD DVD?) to play the new BD+ movies.

Sounds reasonable. Lets look at the facts:
HD/BD is hacked. Fox is pi$$ed to high heaven. BD+ (BDA's last hope to stop hackers) is ready for months. Nobody uses it. Sony says BD+ is not high priority.
Would it be FUD to assume not everything is OK in BD+ land?

Introducing fear, uncertainty and doubt seem to be the current forte of HD DVD "true believers."

Pot? Kettle? Black?

Creating worst case scenarios and preaching doom appears to others to be desperation.

Isn't this what you do about HD?

I'm sorry if I offended you in some way. Will try to do better next time.

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

navychop,-

I really appreciate your desire to keep this conversation civil, rational, objective, FUD-less, etc. But shouldn't you start with your own posts first?
How many times in the last month have you proclaimed - with some reservations, sometimes - that it will be over for HD this year, first half next year?
If this is not FUD - what is?

Big difference between speculating on when it will be over, and posting (sometimes repeatedly) unsupported claims that current players will not be able to play movies after 10/31 - or when BD+ movies come out, etc. The former is extending sales trends and projected title/player releases. The latter is sowing doubt, perhaps in a bid to support a format that is not doing well. No knowledgeable person has ever stated any doubt about current players ability to play BD+ titles. From a business standpoint, do you really think anyone would sell a player that in a very few months would not be able to play new releases? The threat of litigation alone would deter them, let alone the customer dissatisfaction. Spreading a story about current players not playing BD+ movies is not reasonable. It's just mudslinging, hoping some will stick.


"And do you have any support for this idea..."?
Sounds reasonable. Lets look at the facts:
HD/BD is hacked. Fox is pi$$ed to high heaven. BD+ (BDA's last hope to stop hackers) is ready for months. Nobody uses it. Sony says BD+ is not high priority.
Would it be FUD to assume not everything is OK in BD+ land?

It takes months to implement, and who knows what the original schedule was, anyway? Minor comments are seized upon and used to trumpet "bad news" to the unknowing. If BD+ is not in fact put into use, it's because they discovered it could be easily hacked- and that would be bad news for all of us. But it probably does work, at least for the first few months. Previous encryptions were pathetic, feeble attempts to do something on the cheap and were easily broken. Perhaps BD+ learned from this and hired genuine experts who have come up with something respectable.


Pot? Kettle? Black?
Isn't this what you do about HD?

Hope you can see the difference now. I post based on sales figures, retailer actions (BB, Target, etc), expected releases, and technical differences between the formats. Not generating doubts without foundation. And there is no foundation to the BD+ business other than people hoping it fails. And it might- if it's cracked, I think many titles will never be released, and high def discs of any persuasion will remain niche products, maybe mostly limited to releases over 3 years old, after the most money has been rung out of them.

I'm sorry if I offended you in some way. Will try to do better next time.

Diogen.

You aren't the worst, I'm certainly not saying that. Frankly, the worst no longer posts here. After trumpeting his vast knowledge (in his own mind), personally attacking and abusing others, and lamenting our failure to acknowledge his superiority, he posted that he did not like the way he was treated here and went away. Aw, shucks. Guess where he went?

 

[vurbano]

You aren't the worst, I'm certainly not saying that. Frankly, the worst no longer posts here. After trumpeting his vast knowledge (in his own mind), personally attacking and abusing others, and lamenting our failure to acknowledge his superiority, he posted that he did not like the way he was treated here and went away. Aw, shucks. Guess where he went?

To a much more knowledgeable group at AVS?