BD bounces back big -- Nielsen ratings

[JoeSp]

Microsoft
Market cap................ 320 Billion
total cash on hand.......18 Billion
total debt...................0

Sony
Market cap..................47 Billion,
total cash on hand........4 Billion,
total debt....................11 Billion

Diogen.

Diogen, if M$ gets into a fiscal jam the US government will not help them out. If Sony gets into a fiscal jam the Japanese government will give them an interest free loan. Plus, can you give us a link where you found those interesting numbers up there (the actual link listing those numbers please)? Or are you pulling them out of your hat like you usually do?

 

[vurbano]

Vurbano, those free discs are coming from the manufacturers and studios. Neilsen has NEVER counted freebees - onlyretail sales from the manufacturers or studios where money actually changes hands. Have you ever worked retail? Time and time again a manufacturer or studio trots out shelf numbers and Neilsen post actual sales that shows the misdirection.

But lets see if what you say has legs. Toshiba sold what, 98,000 HD-DVD players on one day and each sell received 5 free discs? That total if counted for disc sales would be 490,000 discs for the week, almost HALF of what HD-DVD has sold all year to date. If Neilsen were to count those freebees as sales then HD-DVD sales ratio to BD should not of dropped to 29% last week? Heck, if all the five free discs that HD-DVD players sold this year were actually counted, HD-DVD would not even be behind in discs sales 2 to 1 for the year. Real world numbers Vurbano, real world numbers.

Joe,

When you buy one disc on a BOGO and get one for free(as defined by the term Buy ONE, GET ONE FREE) they count 2 as sold. This is the way sony pads its numbers for the short term.

I dont know how to make it any clearer for you.

 

[JoeSp]

Bogos are shown that way, sometimes, only on your receipt. They are not shown that way in inventory! I used to be a District Manager for EB (department manager at Sears and a Shop Manager at Western Auto-- back in the day) and I know what I am talking about. As a retailer when you honor a sale like this the publishing house (or manufacturer of the products involved) credits you for the actuall cost of the products (in this case the freebee titles used to creat the BOGO) which then comes out of your bottom line as a sale at half price and is shown that way on weekly totals of your actual inventory. The only other way to do this is to replace every free product involved in the sale out of your inventory which would then undermine the usually use of this sale and that is to reduce the retailer's inventory to give space for new product! Either way, no matter how you cut it, it is a sale, , When BB honored the last Disney BOGO sale, my receipt actually showed each title at half off -- not one at full price and one free. This is how the retailer removes the item from inventory without causing shrinkage. Besides, as a BD fan I really like the half-off sales as I can build my library for half the cost -- a tremendous savings when titles are going for $26 to $30.

Does that make it simpler for you?

 

[vurbano]

Bogos are shown that way only on your receipt dummy. They are not shown that way in inventory! I used to be a District Manager for EB (department manager at Sears and a Shop Manager at Western Auto-- back in the day) and I know what I am talking about. As a retailer when you honor a sale like this the publishing house (or manufacturer of the products involved) credits you for the actuall cost of the products (in this case the freebee titles used to creat the BOGO) which then comes out of your bottom line as a sale at half price and is shown that way on weekly totals of your actual inventory. The only other way to do this is to replace every free product involved in the sale out of your inventory which would then undermine the usually use of this sale and that is to reduce the retailer's inventory to give space for new product! Either way, no matter how you cut it, it is a sale, , When BB honored the last Disney BOGO sale, my receipt actually showed each title at half off -- not one at full price and one free. This is how the retailer removes the item from inventory without causing shrinkage.

Does that make it simpler for you?

Could you be any more ignorant? Of course it counts as a sale of 2 discs to Neilsen. Sony knows this and that is why they do it and subsidize it They also know that it hides the fact that it is in reality a sale at a 50% loss. If I were you BD trolls I wouldnt be bragging about a 2:1 lead when I am selling my media at 1/2 the regular price. Why do you do it? So you can shout " look how much money I am losing?" Of course not. You do it so you can say "Oh look how we are winning". Reminds me of the guy that goes up to his neck in debt just to park a mercedes infront of his little house. He cannot afford it ( and neither can Sony)but he does it to perpetrate a status lie. To make people think he is doing well when in reality he is bleeding cash trying to keep up a charade. :haha :haha

 

[vurbano]

I hope you know Joey that this will be my new sig when the Sony PS3 division falls on its face in 08

Originally Posted by JoeSp
With the gaming division looking to break even by the end of March 08 that would mean the PS3 would start making money for Sony by the summer of 08 and that is right on track.

From what I read:

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/05/17/sony-hemorrhages-cash-on-ps3

Sony hemorrhages cash on PS3 - The INQUIRER

Sony said that it expects sales at its main electronics unit to rise four to six percent in 2007/8 from a year earlier. It is hoping to be dragged into the black by its strong flat-panel TV sales and might make a profit by March 2008.

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/05/17/sony-hemorrhages-cash-on-ps3Its the Sony electronics division that hopes to break even due to strong flat panel sales. The PS3 is still expected to be a disaster.

 

[gadgtfreek]

June 30th 2007 First Qtr End
Total Operating Income $810 million
Gaming ($237) million



9-30 2nd Qtr
Total operating Income $407 million
Gaming ($841) million

Looks very bad guys

Sonys not going anywhere, the gaming loss increased because of the PS3 price drop and increase in sales.

I wouldnt start doing cartwheels this early in the game

 

[branchbouncer]

It has been mentioned that the HD DVD "Stand Alone" players have a higher attach rate than the PS3...so what? The last time I looked, everyone was busy creating an "integrated home entertainment experience" (video, music, photos, computing, web surfing, gaming, etc.). Offhand, who in the heck wants a dumb stand-alone video system these days? Not me...especially when you can buy a $399 PS3 and get all these great features rolled into one outstanding box.

How true you are, with the firmware updates that Sony is putting out( while not earth shattering) the PS3 gets better all the time. I am not much of a gamer now-a-days, but have to admit that RFM (resistance fall on man) was fun to play and I even finished the game( most game start to become lack luster at some point). I like the idea of less equipment doing more. I myself grew out of having a 6 foot tall rack of equipment lights staring at me, small and hidden is now the choice

 

[meStevo]

It has been mentioned that the HD DVD "Stand Alone" players have a higher attach rate than the PS3...so what? The last time I looked, everyone was busy creating an "integrated home entertainment experience" (video, music, photos, computing, web surfing, gaming, etc.). Offhand, who in the heck wants a dumb stand-alone video system these days? Not me...especially when you can buy a $399 PS3 and get all these great features rolled into one outstanding box.

Right. Too bad a minority are enjoying a 'integrated home entertainment experience' while the majority of PS3 purchasers just wanted a gaming console and are paying a markup as a result.

The reason a company like Warner is still neutral is because of 2 things:

1. HDDVD attach rate
- And -
2. Unrealized potential of the BD install base (all the PS3s only being used for games, but are potential BD customers)

It will take 1 of 2 things to get them no longer neutral, and dominos continue to fall from there:

1. HDDVD gets more hardware in homes and maintains the attach rate
- Or -
2. The PS3 install base begins to pay off, and more than a 2:1 margin in disc sales becomes commonplace.

Attach rate is the most important thing for HDDVD, it shows their base is dedicated to purchasing media. The BD BOGO sales make numbers look nice, but people like Warner are looking at the real numbers, not funky ratios that are just used for marketing. The intention of the BOGO is to mess with those ratios and sway public opinion, as well as get people in the habit or exposed to the BD media that maybe have not yet, and get them to continue making purchases when the price has been jacked back up for a single disc. If say 2/2008 rolls around and numbers stabilize from all the sales and holiday releases, and the BD figures aren't higher on a consistent basis then all of these BOGO sales were a waste from a corporate standpoint.

 

[vurbano]

Im not basing anything on 2/2008 numbers. I think Sony will bleed at least that long to maintain the fake numbers.

 

[meStevo]

Im not basing anything on 2/2008 numbers. I think Sony will bleed at least that long to maintain the fake numbers.

This is quite true. "It's Valentines day, buy less than 3, get one free... get it! <3 It's a HEART"

That will be their commercial.

 

[JoeSp]

HEY -- is someone crying in here because the BD supporters get to buy their BD movies at half off? One of the reasons BD leads in discs sales IS because generally their movies are less expensive to the consumer then HD-DVD movies. (The other being their is a better selection of movies from the BDA). I would much rather spend $500 on a BD player and have the movies sold at a lower cost then pay $300 for a HD-DVD player and pay twice as much for the movies.

I like how Vurbano cries about the BOGO deals that the BDA has been running but celebrates the dumping of HD-DVD players on the market (especially that $98 sale of the A2). I don't whine about the HD-DVD standalones staying ahead of the BD standalones by undercutting the prices. Heck, I hope the BDA follows so that I can get a really nice player like the new Panny BD30 for under $400!!!!

Go right ahead and buy all those inexpensive HD-DVD players and keep renting your movies because they are too expensive to buy and I will keep buying my BD movies at HALF OFF and enjoy my PS3 until the other BD standalones with full features come out a price I want to pay.

 

[JoeSp]

If anyone has checked -- Warner themselves have said that BD outsells HD-DVD 2-1 in their own catalog. Some titles have sold a little more then 2-1 and this is why Warner is staying nuetral. What happens if you take only 50% of those PS3s and add the BD standalones to the total. Do that and you will come up with an attachment rate right close to HD-DVD. But you guys really don't want to do that do you? Because then it will show that not only are you in second place -- you are entrenched there.

 

[vurbano]

I would much rather spend $500 on a BD player and have the movies sold at a lower cost then pay $300 for a HD-DVD player and pay twice as much for the movies.

Good luck with that. The BOGOs will come to an end when SOny decides the bleeding has to stop and you will be back to 30 dollar movies.

 

[diogen]

Im not basing anything on 2/2008 numbers. I think Sony will bleed at least that long to maintain the fake numbers.

Back from July...
Sony Aims for PS3 Break-Even This Year : Next Generation - Interactive Entertainment Today, Video Game and Industry News - Home of Edge Online

Sony executive VP Nobuyuki Oneda said the firm may be able to break even on PS3 hardware this fiscal year, which ends in March 2008.

It's not clear whether they had planned for the $400 PS3 and such...

Diogen.

 

[allargon]

If anyone has checked -- Warner themselves have said that BD outsells HD-DVD 2-1 in their own catalog. Some titles have sold a little more then 2-1 and this is why Warner is staying nuetral. What happens if you take only 50% of those PS3s and add the BD standalones to the total. Do that and you will come up with an attachment rate right close to HD-DVD. But you guys really don't want to do that do you? Because then it will show that not only are you in second place -- you are entrenched there.

Yes, but expensive box sets like "Planet Earth" sell more on HD-DVD with fewer players in the installed base. I'm annoyed that this entire HDM format battle is about kid titles, and craption flicks like Spiderman 3, Transformers and Fantastic Four. I will give Blu props for Ratatouille. However, most of the dramas and all of the fine art (Opus Arte) videos are on HD-DVD.

I didn't even bring up replication and authoring costs. (Wait. I just did!)

 

[ONUOsFan]

I'm annoyed that this entire HDM format battle is about kid titles, and craption flicks like Spiderman 3, Transformers and Fantastic Four.

I've uttered a similar argument, but yes, it is ultimately going to be about what sells more - it's called capitalism.

 

[mike123abc]

BOGO offers are NEVER accounted for as giving away free items. Instead they are considered selling 2 items for 1/2 price. If a business did not account for it this way they would owe sales tax on the cost of the "free" item.

If I have a bunch of pens made to advertize my business and give them away free I have to pay sales tax on the cost of the pens. If I buy a bunch of DVDs to give out free I have to pay sales tax on my cost of the DVDs. Sales tax laws are written so that the last person to pay for an item owes the sales tax. So, giving away something is never done in a BOGO. If you have to buy something to get the "free" item it is not considered a free item.

BOGO is considered discounted pricing, not free item give aways.