Average 622/722 Temperature thread, Is your's Hot?

[boy921]

The hard drives may be more tolerant to higher temperatures. Mine has gotten up to 138f and works well. If the temperature increases to a predetermined setting, the internal fan should increase in speed thus improving the circulation of air.

Currently two of my 622 temperatures are:

Version D -
High 138f
Low 113f
Average 123f

Version B -
High 138f
Low 109f
Average 122f

(Both D & B receivers are below the rear projection monitor with D spaced 8" above B. Both are just above floor level. The room hottest temperature was 82f)

My Upstairs 622 temperatures are:
Version A -
High 138f
Low 107f
Average 120f

(This receiver is on a table top This room has recently reached the temperature of 90f but has not had a lower temperature than downstairs room.)

 

[riffjim4069]

I wonder how accurate these temperature readings are.

(622 main floor: open air under TV stand and next to Sony HD HDR)
High Temp: 134
Low Temp: 104
Avg Temp: 120

(622 basement HT Room: 5 degrees cooler, open air away from TV and components)
High Temp: 123
Low Temp: 75
Avg Temp: 102

 

[swade]

Fans

Hmm, I'll have to check mine and post. Hopefully I'll have the lowest numbers around. Installed two more fans on my rack (for a total of 4) prior to installing the 622. Both of these fans blow directly on the 622, with one of them lined-up perfectly with the 622's intake fan. All 4 fans blow into the rack with filters on them, creating a positive pressure, low-dust environment.

I did this after feeling the top of the 522 that used to be in there and realizing how hot it was. I've touched the top of the 622 several times since last weeks' install and it's always been room temperature. We'll see how it measures up once I check the temp counter.

Any info on the fans-- are these the micro dual fans that plug into a USB port for power?

Wade

 

[Dirtydan]

Yep, hook up to USB, but keep in mind that it will always be hot, so you might want a fan with on/off switch. It seems like most people use laptop fans, but some use single fans with stands.

 

[Allin4greeN]

I'm using a laptop cooler w/dual fans and an AC adapter. I don't want to draw any more power from the 622 (i.e USB ports) than I have to...

 

[Mark_AR]

Anyone else think the HDD in the 622 is a Maxtor QuickView?

It is.

Its a Maxtor 6L320S0 QuickView.

Not hard to find out. Just had to email Maxtor the Product ID# on the end of my drive without even touching it.

On the Maxtor website, it has the 6L300SO specs pdf which are identical but the capacity is 320GB instead of 300GB..

The operating temps are from 0 to 140F. But as anyone in the electronics industry knows, cooler is always better as long as you also control humidity so that water doesn't condense on the cooled components. (That is why they use AC to cool large computers- it also takes the moisture out of the air to reduce condensation)

I found a graph one time of temperature -vs- life expectancy of HD on the Maxor site, but this was a year or so ago. I can't find it now.

So to answer odbrv with the same analogy:
These(any) drives aren't made run "optimally" at 120-140'F. They will run that way for a while, but as for a car, the thermostat will optimally open at 180'F and everything is fine. Your car may run up to 220 or maybe even higher, but at that higher temp, coupled with outside temps and driving conditions(steep uphill climbs or desert driving) your car WILL OVERHEAT.

In summary:
The 622 design is flawed by not having adequate heat transfer by way of AIR FLOW away from key components and not having heat sinks on the Broadcom chip/chips that sit almost directly below the HD.

So at least by adding external fans/elevating the unit/cooling the ambient(room) temp and HT racks, we are adding to the life expectancy of the drive and components. Something that E* engineers failed to consider at their air conditioned test labs and design cubicles.

 

[RandallA]

I think Mark nailed it right on the head. It's not just the external fans but elevating the unit so heat can exhaust faster.

 

[ralfyguy]

From the Maxtor Website

Overheating can come from unexpected sources. Transferring large data files or uncompressed
graphic files can generate significant heat. Reading or writing a white page (an all ones pattern on the SCSI bus) causes heat to be generated. CD-ROM "burners" often overheat when more than one CD is written at a time. You will want to add an extra fan for the CD-R or CD-RW.

It is very important to confirm that your computer system is qualified for using high-speed disk drives. Today's 10,000 to 15,000 RPM drives need 150 linear feet/min. of directed airflow. The long-term reliability of a hard drive is closely related to its operational temperatures. Most high speed hard drives are designed for an operational temperature of between 5 and 55°C (131°F). Ambient case temperatures above 55°C (131°F) or below 5°C (41°F) can decrease drive reliability, performance, and product life.

Hard drive reliability is closely related to temperature. By operational design, the ambient temperature is 86°F. Temperatures above 122°F or below 41°F, decrease reliability. Directed airflow up to 150 linear feet/min. is recommended for high speed drives.

All Maxtor ATA, SATA, and SCSI drives can operate with or without a fan, providing the hard disk temperature does not exceed 131°F (55°C) as measured from the top cover of the drive. Reliability will be compromised when the drive is exposed to temperatures above 55°C or 131°F. When in doubt of your system's ventilation capabilities, or ambient environment of your hard disk, add an extra cooling fan to the drive bay or system case to force air across the drive.

Guidelines for airflow in system cases and airflow produced by drive bay fans.
The minimum specified airflow for all Maxtor hard disks is 150 LFM (Linear Feet per Minute). Most case designs and drive bay fans produce more than 150 LFM of airflow.
A 2,500 RPM, 80mm case fan moves about 482 LFM of air.
Fan flow ratings apply to ideal conditions. After mounting, typical fan flow is usually 20-30% less than the specified CFM (Cubic Feet Per Minute).
Air cooling is not affected dramatically by elevation and the air density changes associated with increased elevation.
Air cooling is directly affected by the temperature of the incoming air.
Obstructions near a fan can decrease flow rate significantly.
It's better to over-pressurize rather than under-pressurize your system case
Airflow overkill is your safest bet, since dust buildup over time reduces the systems cooling capabilities.
There is no benefit to stacking fans.
Choose the shortest path between air intake or exhaust, minimizing travel length of heated air from the hard disk, and other system components.
Don’t mount your fans to push air against each other, cross flow through the case is best. (Fans pushing air in from the rear, and pulling air out the front or, vice versa) Newer case designs have provisions for mounting fans at the top of the case. This design allows the front and rear fans to pull air in, and the upper fan to push the heated air out through the roof.
Airflow for fans are usually rated in CFM and airflow for drives are usually rated in LFM.

CFM to LFM Conversion Table
05 CFM = 73.0 LFM
10 CFM = 146 LFM
15 CFM = 219 LFM
20 CFM = 292 LFM
25 CFM = 365 LFM
30 CFM = 438 LFM
35 CFM = 511 LFM
40 CFM = 584 LFM
45 CFM = 657 LFM
50 CFM = 730 LFM

 

[Mark_AR]

All excellent info...

Except the 622 fan pushes 0 CFM = 0 LFM save for when the unit first powers up or does the nightly update.

Then, and only then have I heard the fan run.

I have no idea what E* has the fan 'On Temp' set at.

Also, as read and paraphrased in the Maxtor PDF:

The Maxtor® DiamondMax™ 10 Serial ATA HD can operate without a cooling fan as long as the base casting temperature measured at the place where the drive motor is mounted to the base casting, doesn't exceed 140'F.(60'C)

So if you build a fire under it,(can anyone say 'Broadcom chips') and put it into a case with no good way for heat to escape.... What's gonna happen?

 

[ralfyguy]

The 622 fan runs permanently. You just don't hear it. The speed varies with the measured temperature. I never heard it running on full blast either, except on boot up. Now if the built in fan is sufficient or not, that's a different story. The inside of the 622 shows the fan on the left far corner, by the power supply, when viewed from the front panel of the receiver. The Hard Drive is in the middle over to the right side of the case, about 10 inches away. The fan is designed to pull the the hot air out of the receiver, so the Hard Drive actually doesn't get cooled itself. That's the flaw in my opinion. There should have been a second fan to the right of the Drive to blow the hot air generated by the drive over to the left, and the existing fan takes over and discharges through the case vent. Since the existing fan runs so quiet, it wouldn't make alot more noise with another fan next to the drive.

 

[Mark_AR]

I don't mean to disrespect, but where do you get your exceptionally incorrect info?

My 622 has been powered on since 6:30 PM(roughly 6 hours)

#1: The fan is NOT running continuously.
#2: The fan is located on the RIGHT side and not on the PS side.
#3:THe fan rotates CCW to draw air into the right side of the unit and exhaust it on the left so cooler incoming air circulates through the entire unit. Doing it the other way would actually cause more heat inside the chassis by sucking air over the PS first.

Chassis layout:

Unless there has been a major design changes since the 962 became the 622 the following pictures are still accurate.(Taken about 12:00AM 5/22/06)

PIC1: Overall layout of components of the 622(962).

PIC2: Shows fan NOT running on my 622 that is currently ON (nearly 6 hours at time of writing). Pic was taken through the chassis slot on right side of unit.

PIC3: Shows my 4" fan fitting neatly into the space between the drive/UHF antenna pcb and the fan/tunnel. Tilted slightly, it pushes air down between the mobo and hard drive. I still have to finish the plexiglass cover to contain the airflow.

 

[Claude Greiner]

I unplugged my 622 in my bedroom a few days ago and the room temp dropped by about 2-3 degrees!

 

[bhelms]

It looks like several folks are making some significant progress on the 622's heat management "problem". I put that in quotes because we probably don't have any hard evidence yet that excessive heat has actually caused a failure. But I think most agree that lower temps are better for overall long-term reliability and more airflow is one way to achieve that goal (as long as it flows and doesn't "collide"!). I have been contemplating what Mark_AR has undertaken - to actually intervene and change/improve the airflow to the heat-producing components. Clearly the temp. readings we're all monitoring are taken within the HDD, but is that indicative of the hottest spots? Probably not. Some spot temp. readings inside an operating unit (with the cover closed) would shed some light on the issue. That's what I intend to do. Then the "hot spots" can be given individual attention. Now if those fan units I ordered would just get here...!

 

[riffjim4069]

I unplugged my 622 in my bedroom a few days ago and the room temp dropped by about 2-3 degrees!

As must as I like our 622s, I think we'll keep our 811...don't need to pay the additional electric bills.

 

[rjruby]

PIC1: Overall layout of components of the 622(962).

PIC2: Shows fan NOT running on my 622 that is currently ON (nearly 6 hours at time of writing). Pic was taken through the chassis slot on right side of unit.

PIC3: Shows my 4" fan fitting neatly into the space between the drive/UHF antenna pcb and the fan/tunnel. Tilted slightly, it pushes air down between the mobo and hard drive. I still have to finish the plexiglass cover to contain the airflow.

Mark,
I hope you're planning to market a kit for this "upgrade" to your fellow 622 owners.
Maybe you can sell it to Dish for implementation!
Bob

 

[abricko]

They need to treat these units like the computers they are, properly designed air flow is important... that broadcom chip could use a heatsink on it, may not be a bad idea to add one (even with a little fan) like you see on most modern (expensive) mobos!

I agree, i've never heard the fan turn on in the 622 (not counting bootup / reboot) I think they need to have it running all the time at the lowest speed possible

 

[Mark_AR]

Mark,
I hope you're planning to market a kit for this "upgrade" to your fellow 622 owners.
Maybe you can sell it to Dish for implementation!
Bob

Bob,
I've been thinking about a non-invasive way to do that. It would not void your warranty either, or add much to the footprint of the 622. (not really)

Maybe even come in sporty colors and designs..

But all this MOD stuff should be a different thread...

Even only as much as I've done. It is a grey area. I haven't physically removed/altered any components, but I have opened the cover. It is up for interpretation. That is why I OWN it.

Ideally, the power should not be tapped from the USB or onboard PS, because it may interfere with operation of the unit. Typical USB ports can usually handle 500milliamp loads or less. So ideally a 5, 7.5, 9 or 12v external transformer would be needed to power the fan(s). 7.5v seems to balance air flow and quietness of the 4" fan.

Thermoelectric or Peltier coolers would not work because they just transfer the heat from one side of a conductive material to the other and you still need ventillation to remove the heat from the case.

At the very least, E* should have put slots over the power supply board on the top cover for some convective cooling.

Back to our regular topic...

My numbers still stand:

High: 123 - Factory value.
Aver: 89
Low: 66 - Wait til we get a really cold night! :devil:

 

[Mark_AR]

They need to treat these units like the computers they are, properly designed air flow is important... that broadcom chip could use a heatsink on it, may not be a bad idea to add one (even with a little fan) like you see on most modern (expensive) mobos!

Your right. They ARE computers of sorts...

I need to dig out an older pentium heatsink, chop it down and put a dab of Arctic Silver on it and just stick it on that one BC chip that I pointed out. It was way too hot to touch when I first opened the case. (I think my fingerprint is finally coming back)

I'd say the reason is wasn't done from the factory(fan on the BC chip) is (1) Cost and (2) Noise. As you can see, they even added vibration dampers(blue grommets) to the fan and hard drive mounts to minimize hum and transfer of sound from moving parts.

 

[bhelms]

My original Pentium had a fan mounted right on the chip's heatsink. That certainly seemed like a good idea at the time. (That PC had THREE fans overall!) If there's enough space, I might scavange that one and mount it on the BC chip with some silicone grease to optimize the heat transfer. If that doesn't help it can be removed and the grease cleaned-off to take it back to as-received, but I can't believe that addition wouldn't help with that hot spot. I also agree it should have its own power source to minimize the burden on the 622, which is probably operating at close to its limit as-is!

The 622 is a computer in every respect in my mind and as abricko said, they need to be designed as such. I'm sure the designers and reliability engineers are faced with the usual economic juggling act - added cost for more cooling vs. the possible added cost for heat-related failures. There is science to this (ask any CRE) based in the old mil. specs (MIL-HDBK-217) and telco specs (Telcordia SR-332). For the end-users that have the technical abilities, there are obvious tricks that can only help the situation. Yes - opening the case voids the warranty. But once I have a "keeper" (might take a few weeks to be reasonably assured it's "trouble-free") then I'm inclined to open it up and do these things that I'm certain will help with heat-related glitches (spontaneous reboots are likely symptoms!) and long-term reliability.

And like pjruby has hinted, there would likely be an aftermarket for a "non-invasive" solution with proven results. Let's see which one of us is first-to-market with it...!

 

[Allin4greeN]

For those of us who lease... how far can we take these "upgrades" before they're... errr... noticable once the 622 is returned?

I realize that as one who leases the 622, my investment is modest compared to those of you who've bought it and put in the big $$$... Still, I'd like to increase the longevity of mine, and decrease the potential for heat related problems/failure... I'm beginning to see that a simple laptop cooler, while somewhat effective, may not be "enough"?