ATSC 3.0 Discussion

[N5XZS]

It's amazing how the Hartford station has changed hands so many times over the years!

 

[raoul5788]

It's amazing how the Hartford station has changed hands so many times over the years!

Is that so unusual for independants?

 

[N5XZS]

Well, that depends on each different TV markets neat history to it.

 

[bluegras]

Dielectric Moves Production Focus From Repack To NextGen TV
Dielectric Moves Production Focus From Repack To NextGen TV | TV News Check

 

[Justin Hill]

If the deployment of this new broadcast standard by the TV stations is voluntary, I predict that the commercial TV stations owned by the Marks Radio Group (including WBKB-TV 11 [11.1 CBS/11.2 Fox & MyNetworkTV/11.3 ABC] in Alpena, Michigan) might be the last to have been converted...whenever that'll be...

 

[mwdxer1]

People just don't seem to understand HEVC transmissions. Just like with Orby tv, and I still see them posting the "you just can't do it" stuff over and over.

You can NOT think of it like our ancient Mpeg-2 transmissions. It's brand new technology. HEVC uses like 1/3TH the bandwidth of old-school Mpeg-2, to be capable of transmitting the SAME picture.

So, YES, ATSC 3.0 is going to be quite capable of doing all this, without any issue at all.

I have some engineering knowledge coming from the analog days and yet 3.0 is not easy to totally follow from a technical standpoint. So I can easily understand a layman being totally confused over 3.0. I think for the majority, the product will have to be here to understand how it works.

 

[mwdxer1]

HEVC has better compression but 4K HDR transmissions have at least 5 times more data than 1080i SDR. So if a station is broadcasting three 1080i SDR channels and one 4K HDR channel they will be out of bandwidth.


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How many SD channels can they cram onto 3.0? I can see a lot of small channels do just that. If they have 6 or 7 now, why not 10 or 15? A money-maker indeed. But more diginets in a market.

 

[comfortably_numb]

How many SD channels can they cram onto 3.0? I can see a lot of small channels do just that. If they have 6 or 7 now, why not 10 or 15? A money-maker indeed. But more diginets in a market.

As long as the PQ isn't horrendous, I'm looking forward to it- I've been watching a lot more OTA lately and I really enjoy channels like Qwest, TBA, the PBS .2 and .3 stations, and more. I don't miss paying for TV at all.

 

[mwdxer1]

As long as the PQ isn't horrendous, I'm looking forward to it- I've been watching a lot more OTA lately and I really enjoy channels like Qwest, TBA, the PBS .2 and .3 stations, and more. I don't miss paying for TV at all.

The issue with a market like Portland, many diginets are not available compared to other cities with even less population. For instance Kansas City MO has more diginets than Portland has. With 3.0, we may be more diginets and more in HD too. Personally I could care less about 4K. I would like to have access to more bandwidth and decent pq. With the 1.0 stacking Portland will be offering, our translators out here on the coast, will give up many more OTA channels as 32 & 49 will be used for 3.0 for the next 5+ years. That is a real plus for our area.
Popular diginets not available in the Portland OR market are Decades, Movies, Retro, Start TV, Heroes & Icons, and others. For a #22 largest market many diginets are missing.

 

[Voyager6]

As long as the PQ isn't horrendous, I'm looking forward to it- I've been watching a lot more OTA lately and I really enjoy channels like Qwest, TBA, the PBS .2 and .3 stations, and more. I don't miss paying for TV at all.

I found this article again that shows the breakdown of UHD, HD, and Sd channels that are possible with the ATSC 3.0 standard.
It starts on Page 15 of the PDF.

https://www.radioclubofamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2-WALLACE_RCA_TECH_SYMPOSIUM_111317_PIT_Rev4-1.pdf

Basically, it breaks down to this.
8K - 1 Channel (compressed)
4K - 1 Channel (uncompressed)
or
1080P - Up to 6 Channels
720P - Up to 12 Channels
480P - 15 or more
360P (mobile) - 30 or more

You can have combinations of all the 1080P and lower resolutions to fit the available bandwidth on one signal.

Trying to cram multiple 4K stations and additional sub-channels on one signal will be disaster.
Trying to cram multiple HD channels on an ATSC 1.0 signal for "lighthousing" will be a disaster.

 

[N5XZS]

For some reason the pdf files is not downloading properly.

 

[mwdxer1]

I found this article again that shows the breakdown of UHD, HD, and Sd channels that are possible with the ATSC 3.0 standard.
It starts on Page 15 of the PDF.

https://www.radioclubofamerica.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2-WALLACE_RCA_TECH_SYMPOSIUM_111317_PIT_Rev4-1.pdf

Basically, it breaks down to this.
8K - 1 Channel (compressed)
4K - 1 Channel (uncompressed)
or
1080P - Up to 6 Channels
720P - Up to 12 Channels
480P - 15 or more
360P (mobile) - 30 or more

You can have combinations of all the 1080P and lower resolutions to fit the available bandwidth on one signal.

Trying to cram multiple 4K stations and additional sub-channels on one signal will be disaster.
Trying to cram multiple HD channels on an ATSC 1.0 signal for "lighthousing" will be a disaster.

With the newer technology the engineers claim you are squeeze a bit more out of the 1.0 now. With the stacking in Portland, KATU's ABC stack should be the most interesting.
2.1 KATU ABC 720p
2.2 METV 480i (dropping from 720p)
2.3 Comet 480i
2.4 Stadium 480i
32.1 KRCW CW 1080i

Then KOIN CBS
6.1 KOIN CBS 1080i
6.2 Get TV 480i
6.3 Bounce 480i
32.2 Antenna TV 480i
32.3 Court TV 480i
32.4 TBD 480i

One HD on KOIN's stack, but 5 SD sub channels. For several years KOIN avoided adding any sub channels as they wanted the perfect 1080i quality. They were by far the best looking OTA station in Portland for years, but a few years back they added a couple of subs. I know one engineer wasn't happy, but money talks.

 

[TheKrell]

With the newer technology the engineers claim you are squeeze a bit more out of the 1.0 now. With the stacking in Portland, KATU's ABC stack should be the most interesting.
2.1 KATU ABC 720p
2.2 METV 480i (dropping from 720p)
2.3 Comet 480i
2.4 Stadium 480i
32.1 KRCW CW 1080i

Then KOIN CBS
6.1 KOIN CBS 1080i
6.2 Get TV 480i
6.3 Bounce 480i
32.2 Antenna TV 480i
32.3 Court TV 480i
32.4 TBD 480i

One HD on KOIN's stack, but 5 SD sub channels. For several years KOIN avoided adding any sub channels as they wanted the perfect 1080i quality. They were by far the best looking OTA station in Portland for years, but a few years back they added a couple of subs. I know one engineer wasn't happy, but money talks.

Do you know if they will do the right thing and present widescreen SD in the proper aspect?

 

[fithian]

For 2020, all G and higher versions of LG OLED TVs will have NextGen TV built in. A firmware update is required to activate it, sometime later this year. 55, 65 75 sizes, not the 48.

 

[Jim5506]

For 2020, all G and higher versions of LG OLED TVs will have NextGen TV built in. A firmware update is required to activate it, sometime later this year. 55, 65 75 sizes, not the 48.

Should be mandatory in ALL television reception devices that have an ATSC 1.0 tuner manufactured after the date that the first ATSC 3.0 station goes on the air under the new rules (i.e. running the 5 year clock down to cut off of ATSC 1.0)

 

[navychop]

Be careful what you wish for.

Besides, such a mandate would bring back tunerless monitors.

 

[bluegras]

FCC to Vote on Plan to Use ATSC 3.0 for 'Broadcast Internet' - Cord Cutters News

 

[Voyager6]

FCC to Vote on Plan to Use ATSC 3.0 for 'Broadcast Internet' - Cord Cutters News

Watch out for this. Wouldn't this further dilute the available bandwidth for TV broadcasts?

While ATSC 3.0 can offer up improvements like 4K video quality and improved sound, Carr focused on other potential use cases, including the ability to offer consumers a new broadband option, alongside cable, fiber, and satellite. Broadcast internet, he said, could help advance efforts like autonomous driving, IoT, telemedicine and more. To get there, though, Carr’s proposal includes removing certain regulations currently in place for broadcasters.


“To boost the build out of next-gen broadcast internet services, we should remove the overhang of legacy media regulations,” he said. “The FCC will be voting on a measure that does just that.”


Specifically, the FCC is expected to vote on a Declaratory Ruling and Notice of Proposed Rulemaking that states, among other details, that, “FCC’s broadcast television station ownership rules do not apply to leasing arrangements between broadcasters and third parties for the provision of broadcast internet services.”

 

[mwdxer1]

Do you know if they will do the right thing and present widescreen SD in the proper aspect?

I presume they will. I think the stations will be displayed the way they are now.

 

[TNGuy84]

I'm sure there will be plenty of stations willing to lease bandwidth for such things. The stations that end up doing this will probably look the same quality-wise as they do now. I hope we're not pushing for a new system that only benefits the broadcasters money-wise with no incentive for the viewers. I was hoping for more channel offerings with less compression artifacts, but if the stations lease off most of their excess bandwidth, I'll gladly stick with ATSC 1.0's version of overly compressed video.