Analyst: Dish could lose billions

[Stargazer]

If Dish Network raises their fees due to this then they will be at a disadvantage to the competition (DirecTv) with their DVR rates. Directv pays Tivo so why should we pay more if Dish has to pay Tivo as well? Dish just wants to keep more of the money for themselves. Dish already charges a fee for every DVR instead of one fee per account like Directv does.

Dish has had this coming to them. Sometimes it does not pay to be cheap as it can cost you more money than what you save. This one bad deal would cost Dish more than what it ever saved on everything else.

I think the reason why Dish is fighting this is to prove to other companies that they are not going to let them get away with trying to get money out of them. If they pay this then they are afraid that other companies will think that they will give in.

 

[FCom911]

...I think the reason why Dish is fighting this is to prove to other companies that they are not going to let them get away with trying to get money out of them. If they pay this then they are afraid that other companies will think that they will give in.

Afraid or not (Dish), there are ethics associated with commerce. If you're a thief and a thug, you make your subs feel a party to the actions. After all, we're feeding the machine, aren't we?

I know I feel uncomfortable due to Dish's behavior.

Q: Ethically, do I take my business elsewhere, or hope, whatever the outcome, it is the right one? Same goes for the Rainbow litigation.

Sooner or later, I believe, Dish will end up paying for there malicious business practices.

 

[Mojo]

I'm kind of surprise that the usual suspects haven't jumped in this thread defending Dish actions or flaming us for our disloyalty.

 

[NightRyder]

I'm kind of surprise that the usual suspects haven't jumped in this thread defending Dish actions or flaming us for our disloyalty.

Because this subject has already been speculated to death. Until there is a final court decision(s) there is really nothing more to talk about.

NightRyder

 

[EricBskiVT]

Originally Posted by EricBskiVT
If you want justice, go to a prostitute. If you want to get screwed, go to court.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but why do you say that? Despite its severe ineffecienties, I would say that Civil courts do an adaquete job of delivering justice....especially in cases in which there is no jury.

While conceding that our system is better than many, I've seen many injustices done in court. That said, I don't care to hijack the thread either, so I'll make no further comments.

 

[riffjim4069]

I'm kind of surprise that the usual suspects haven't jumped in this thread defending Dish actions or flaming us for our disloyalty.

I find it hard bashing E*'s unethical business practices using TiVo's shoddy "We can't run a business, so we may as well sue for patent infringement" tactics. It's like chopping wood using a baseball bat and bathing in the Detroit River....you don't get very far, and you're still dirty afterwards.

I just did a quick search and the same pundits (news media, business analysts, judge, and the same cast of SatelliteGuys) were discussing the same issue almost two years ago about EchoStar-TiVo litigation. I wish this case would just go away already. While it may have sucked to ante up a few bucks for TiVo years ago, in the long run the negative press and loss of Goodwill has cost E* far more than the $150M it's going to cost them. The folks at DirecTV were smarter...a lot smarter... by paying TiVo to go away.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/75198-judge-stops-countersuit-against-tivo.html

 

[mike123abc]

There is a huge thread in the warzone where you can read just about everything to do with this. It is in the war zone because it turned very heated with those who support TiVo and those that support Dish.

My only thought is that Dish just wants to continue to pocket the DVR fee they charge as pure profit. DIRECTV at least used part of it to license the software from TiVo. Dish is convinced the new software does not violate the TiVo patent (they claim 3 separate outside reviews of the code say it does not infringe), TiVo is convinced that the new code still infringes.

If nothing is resolved and everything goes TiVo's way, all Dish DVRs will be shut down including 622s, 722s, 612s, etc. TiVo claims all the new ones infringe too, even though the trial was over the older models. It is possible that only the older ones will have to be shut off and Dish will send new models out to customers. It is possible that Dish will be able to prove the new software does not infringe and not have to shut down any DVRs. Dish is attempting to sue in a different court to prove that its new software does not infringe.

So, some possibility: a deal being worked with TiVo, Dish found not to infringe any more, some DVRs found infringing being shut off and all DVRs found infringing and being shut off will happen. Lots of speculation around each possibility. But, for now it looks like nothing is going to happen before September when the next court date comes up.

 

[JThree]

I find it hard bashing E*'s unethical business practices using TiVo's shoddy "We can't run a business, so we may as well sue for patent infringement" tactics...

Of course it's hard to run a business when competitors steal your IP and don't properly license it, so I don't blame TiVo at all for falling back on the courts.

 

[Hall]

The question that I have is if Dish is forced to disable the DVRs, would that put them into breach of contract? I understand that they can modify the channel lineup all they want, but I signed up for DISH due to the reviews I heard of their DVRs compared to DirectTV at the time.

You signed up for Dish "due to the reviews" you read or heard ? Does your contract with Dish state this too ? It's a complete waste of time and typing anymore to repeat DISH WILL NOT SHUT OFF THEIR DVRS, but let's just pretend we live in a fantasy world and it did happen. When they do, they won't charge us the $4.95/mo or whatever fee it is for DVR service and everything else will be the same.

 

[jwgreen68]

Let us get real. No court is going to order Dish out of business. And that is the almost inevitable result of ordering all DVRs turned off. Any judge that did so would see a stay issued almost overnight. Might even get to the Supreme Court, but I doubt that very much. I also doubt that the feds would stand by and let it happen.

The press, especially certain parts of it, have a vested interest in stirring up excitement. Warranted or not. Sure, it could happen. And we could also be hit by a comet tomorrow.

" I heard that the comet was coming Friday. Guess my fortuneteller was wrong! AGAIN! Funny thing is, she had a vision about the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But didn't tell anyone. Wouldn't have mattered anyways, she didn't get the vision til Dec. 9th!

The bottom line is, Dish cannot allow the DVRs to be disabled, no matter what it may cost them. Your DVR is safe. Just ask my fortuneteller!

 

[Smith P.]

Bottom line...higher prices for the consumer.

You'll better to ask why Dish did add PVR/DVR fee back to a few years ( 510 was the first) ?

Expected TiVo will bite them soon or late ?

And the $5 multiply by 12 months by 6 years by 100,000s customers. Feel the cash flow?

 

[Jim S.]

Of course it's hard to run a business when competitors steal your IP and don't properly license it, so I don't blame TiVo at all for falling back on the courts.

I blame Tivo for filing for a bogus patent, the patent office for granting it, the lawyers for taking it to court, and the courts for enforcing it.

Truth of the matter is, I INVENTED THE DVR. One day as I was looking for something on a videotape, I said to myself "Damn, I'm so sick and tired of forwarding and rewinding videotapes! Wouldn't it be nice if someday we had sufficient processor speed and storage density to allow us to record video digitally for random access?" But you don't see me trying to make people pay me for it, because it was an obvious evolution of existing technology.

 

[Stargazer]

Dish Network stands to lose way too much if DVR's are shut off so I agree that they would not allow that to happen. They will pay up first unless they find it cheaper to ship out replacements to all of their customers, and Dish Network will still owe for past amounts due. Otherwise a lot of people that bought their DVR's or paid to have it upgraded to a DVR will sue Dish Network in a class action. They would also end up losing a lot of their subscribers to DirecTv. Dish Network stands to lose way too much if they get shut off.

 

[TheKrell]

Wouldn't it be nice if someday we had sufficient processor speed and storage density to allow us to record video digitally for random access?" But you don't see me trying to make people pay me for it, because it was an obvious evolution of existing technology.

:up :up

 

[DishSubLA]

It was Ergan himself who said a few years ago at shareholders meeting, "Back when we started Dish Network, if we made a million dollar mistake, we would be out of business. Today, if we make a billion dollar mistake, we'll be just fine." He can afford to peruse the legal path he is pursuing because Tivo has tipped it hand at a recent interview when it stated that they plan to "sue the heck out of Echostar" and clearly implied that they will go after everyone else and use a court victory as leverage to have other companies pay Tivo's costs. Dish & Echostar are not going out of business any time soon. We may see an increase in the DVR fee as the worst case scenario. Tivo really wants a stream of cash from Dish over the long-haul, not see Dish go out of business. Tivo must want a mountain of money because Ergan has settled lawsuits in the past, (the Gemstar/TV Guide settlement is a really good example) but Tivo's power would be onerous if it finally ends up winning. There essential argument and attitude is that they invented the DVR and it is impossible for any software for a DVR not to have violated its patents. As stated, the price would increase for all consumers. Tivo must also want far more than it is worth as a price for buying, at least controlling interest, the company. I still think Charlie should buy Tivo, although they move may put Dish at risk of going out of business.

As for press accounts and so called expert investors, many of them are mouth pieces for Tivo and other companies. So take what they say with a grain of salt.

 

[costanzas_wallet]

I lol at the thought of Dish just buying Tivo rather than paying the fines.
Thats gangster.

 

[Bruuce]

I lol at the thought of Dish just buying Tivo rather than paying the fines.
Thats gangster.

I lol'ed. Gangsta!

 

[DishSubLA]

I lol at the thought of Dish just buying Tivo rather than paying the fines.
Thats gangster.

Then as the new owner of Tivo, Ergan can go after all his competitors using Tivo's patents. Crazier things have happened in business. Even ol' Rupert Murdoch bought a company that brought a suit against one of Murdoch's companies just to avoid the whole problem. It is not just the award of damages--not a fine--that is at stake. It is Dish forever having to pay Tivo a royalty. The last thing he needs now is an increase in the DVR fee even if his is by far the lowest of virtually any other provider.

 

[kstuart]

There essential argument and attitude is that they invented the DVR and it is impossible for any software for a DVR not to have violated its patents.

I came up with the idea for the PDA before Palm did, but at the time, the low power processors and memory used in the later Palm Pilot did not exist, so I could not proceed to make one.

Clearly the idea of a pocket organizer using PC parts, was a logical and natural use of the technology.

Similarly, using a VCR to record TV onto a hard drive is a logical and natural use of the technology as well - and in fact, Dish won the part of the patent dispute over DVR hardware.

So, if Dish can legally make a hardware DVR, that means logically that legal software can exist to run it, software which is not patented by TiVo. So, TiVo's claims that "Dish can't possibly create software that doesn't infringe" has already been implictly denied by earlier court decisions.

 

[WiCkeDuDe]

I wish Dish would just buy Tivo or settle and pay them off so we would not have to have any more of these threads. It is getting out of hand. Seems about every other week we hear new groundbreaking news on this but nothing ever really happens. Lets worry about it when it happens.