AMC4 received with 18" dish!

[Mr Tony]

nah. the pucks are the same...its the way they play it that has changed
(and the goalie equipment size)

 

[ken2400]

A picture of a modified one would be GREAT. If you have the same style unmod that would be even BETTER

I have one that I could mod just to try this.

OK I was not going to give an update today BUT what the hay.
Last night I received

G3C CCTV channels Two transponders but only one has FTA on it.
I want to go for IA5 tonight.

First you will need to acquire a donor lnbf, working or dead. Can you dissect it to the point of scavenging the ferro-ceramic DRO puck, and using pieces of it, change the physical dimensions of the recipient DRO puck -- without inflicting unintentional damage to the delicate surroundings? You won't get very far by adjusting the local oscillator frequency of an lnbf using the fine tune set-screw -- that might be part of it's design. It's only good for a few MHz either way; the LO needs to be lowered 500 MHz from 11250 to 10750 MHz. You might be able to sufficiently drop it (on some lnbf's) with the fine tune screw and allow reception of an uppermost transponder on a Ku satellite -- to prove it works. On (only) the first lnbf I tried, I was able to do just that. It's also necessary to remove the small teflon dielectric wedge (that may or may not be there) from the throat of the feedhorn to convert from circular to linear polarization. If you're familiar with C-band feedhorns and the need to insert a teflon dielectric plate to receive circular transmissions from international satellites like NSS-806, you'll know what I mean. (BTW, I receive digital FTA C-band on that bird using an 5' 10" mesh dish with 17 degree lnb.)

How it all began:
All I had were my Primestar dishes with their Ku lnb's, and I needed more of them for co-feeds. I also wanted to experiment (like the person who began this thread) using 18" dish hardware on the lower power Ku linear band. It was time to think about buying a couple lnbf's, but what to do with all my DBS lnbf's incompatible for serious FTA use? So I thought about attempting a conversion experiment with my growing pile of possibilities. Now I will never need to buy a Ku lnbf nor will I run out of free replacements. And, of course, the experience is priceless.

I removed the outer plastic shell and feed cap from an DTV lnbf and pulled the teflon wedge from the throat of the feed. Then I removed the silicone sealant covering the head of the LO frequency adjust set-screw. I reinstalled the lnbf on the dish and blind scanned on T-5/A-5 with my Pansat. After turning the set-screw a turn or two in either direction, it was able to load the highest transponder at 12.177 V. I had lowered the LO by 23 MHz, extending reception below the lower limit of 12.2 for the DTV lnbf. Of course the IF frequency was the result of an uncalibrated LO so the Pansat computed the frequency as much lower. If you don't have a way to measure the DRO frequency, a blind search receiver is the next best choice to locate what's available in the IF range.

But, only one out of ten of my various DN and DTV lnbf's was built so conveniently for that experiment. It even had screws that held the back plate in place against an O ring. The other lnbf's had press-fit silicon sealed plates that needed to be carefully pried off from the semi-permanent seal. And they did not have removable dielectric wedges, but instead had a shaped form that was molded as part of the cast metal feedhorn throat. I removed all of it by using a file, after removing the entire circuit board to clear the work area. It's not that difficult to do. As far as the ceramic puck (looks like an aspirin tablet), it requires more mass to lower the local oscillator frequency. To increase mass means to add more puck material from the donor lnbf puck. I used a side-cutter to cleave a piece from the puck (inside a plastic bag because it's brittle material that scatters like glass and you don't want to breathe the dust). Using epoxy or super glue, attach a fragment of the donor puck to the top of the other puck. Adding slivers and fragments will alter the dimensions and thus lower the frequency as needed. Just remember to retract the adjusting screw to prevent it from crushing the modified puck due to any change in height. In my case I needed to increase the mass of the puck about 30%; some small fragments were added around the circumference to better maintain the low profile. I replaced the back plate and rescanned for results, adding or removing ceramic material until it was close enough to use the set-screw for fine tuning.

I didn't find any need to modify the front-end bandpass. The lnbf microstrip bandpass, antenna and waveguide are designed for 12.2 - 12.7 instead of 11.7 - 12.2, but my quality readings are comparable using either a standard Ku or DSS modded lnbf on my Primestar. And that's saying something, because the scaler rings on the DSS lnbf are not designed to fully illuminate the wide 1 meter surface of such a (short vertical axis) Ku dish.

There is no standard DBS lnbf to use as a model when it comes to converting from circular to linear polarization, but adjusting the size of the ceramic puck is about the same in each case. I could show you some internal pictures of my lnbf's if you enjoy getting involved with odd projects like this one. There are plenty of surplus lnbf's available. DN installers around this area accumulated piles of dishes and lnb's they removed when upgrading their customers to the super dish. Driving in the country, I still see 18" dishes and Dish 500's left laying on the ground beside poles that now have the super dish. Lots of Primestar poles in the ground with DTV or DN retrofits. But, unfortunately, most of the Primestars (Channel Master built) are long gone in some dump. I never seem to be able to find any of the remaining survivors if I'm trying too hard.


-sidha

 

[CharredPC]

I did it! ... and shot myself in the foot, too

Sidha:

I performed the mods you described (pretty well, I think). I added about 30% more ceramic to the "puck," and removed the wedge from the feed horn. It actually was pretty easy!

I fired up ProgDVB, and got the proof; signal is pretty miserable (39%) on 12676; setting it to 10959 gives 66% signal. Here's where the problem comes in...

I use a Twinhan 102g. So no blind scan. The modification (obviously) uncalibrated the lnb, so now frequencies are a bit off (I assume). So I'm sitting here with a modded DTV dish, and no way to use it... except maybe try every single possible combination of frequency/polarization/symbol rate while pointed at this bird I'm aimed at now. Blast, why haven't they made a blind search app for these cards? Maybe I can make a fake sat transponder set that has EVERY combination in it, as a very crude blind search. Would only take a few weeks to run through it..

Any advice? If I ever get this working, I'll use my digital camera and do a step-by-step guide on my ghetto mod. It'd be kinda fun

 

[sidha]

Sidha:

I performed the mods you described (pretty well, I think). I added about 30% more ceramic to the "puck," and removed the wedge from the feed horn. It actually was pretty easy!

I fired up ProgDVB, and got the proof; signal is pretty miserable (39%) on 12676; setting it to 10959 gives 66% signal. Here's where the problem comes in...

I use a Twinhan 102g. So no blind scan. The modification (obviously) uncalibrated the lnb, so now frequencies are a bit off (I assume). So I'm sitting here with a modded DTV dish, and no way to use it... except maybe try every single possible combination of frequency/polarization/symbol rate while pointed at this bird I'm aimed at now. Blast, why haven't they made a blind search app for these cards? Maybe I can make a fake sat transponder set that has EVERY combination in it, as a very crude blind search. Would only take a few weeks to run through it..

Any advice? If I ever get this working, I'll use my digital camera and do a step-by-step guide on my ghetto mod. It'd be kinda fun

You have a rare lnbf with the Teflon wedge, or did you remove a strip of cast metal? On my first lnbf experiment I lowered the DRO by using the adjustment screw. That allowed me to capture the upper transponder of A5. I was able to turn the screw more and scan in an additional transponder, but the signal (not quality) level fell dramatically. The oscillator was loading down heavily. That's one reason why it's necessary to modify the DRO. I connected a signal meter in series with the lnbf to monitor the signal level while turning the adjustment screw. The more I adjusted down the DRO in frequency, the weaker the output signal became. But once the DRO was properly modded, the signal level was comparable to my Primestar lnb. And, as I mentioned before, the performance is about the same.

For you, the LO might be running somewhere out of band below 11.250 and you don't have a clue. I didn't toy with mine until a blind search receiver became my test instrument. It's easy to verify oscillation by using a radar detector when the DRO is exposed, but that's not getting closer to using it for this application. You really need a frequency counter or at least a blind search receiver to get results and have fun at the same time. Consider also, are the two monopole antennas fully 90 degrees apart and positioned H/V? I've found design variations between lnbfs. Not all are 90 degrees, more like 70, and I avoid them if I want usable voltage switched polarities.

You are in fact doing a blind search in the broadest definition of the term. For this project a blind search feature is priceless. BTW, you won't need to process all the variables to succeed at a manual blind search. Set the SR for a known transponder and key-in frequencies beginning at 12.200, 12.198, 12.196, ect, until you see a quality reading. If possible, try to pick an SR common to multiple transponders -- the more targets the better. And if choice is an option, choose a well lit bird with lots of active transponders. You may want to work down from 12.200 and then up from 11.700 (in .002 or .003 increments -- depending upon how broad your card/sw auto-fine-tune lock works.). If the shifted LO generates an IF range containing any transponders at all, they will be unevenly distributed, located mostly toward the upper or lower IF extreme within the limits of the receiver's tuning range. I assume your 18" dish is secure and pointed at the AMC-4 / DTV orbital slot, targeted by using a stock DSS lnbf and DTV IRD, or a signal meter. Are you confident that the dish position isn't another variable to add to your blind search definitions?

I hope you're surprised by positive results soon. Success was easy for me from the start. Good-luck!


-sidha

PS. Thinking about converting an analogue camera to a digital camera for taking those pictures you promised?

 

[ken2400]

This is GREAT stuff. I have not had too much time lately BUT I did find

HDTV - Spanish
HDTV - English

on a transponder that was 5000 SR , ?, ?????
I think it is east of 95W ?

Any ideas?

Thanks

Sidha:

I performed the mods you described (pretty well, I think). I added about 30% more ceramic to the "puck," and removed the wedge from the feed horn. It actually was pretty easy!

I fired up ProgDVB, and got the proof; signal is pretty miserable (39%) on 12676; setting it to 10959 gives 66% signal. Here's where the problem comes in...

I use a Twinhan 102g. So no blind scan. The modification (obviously) uncalibrated the lnb, so now frequencies are a bit off (I assume). So I'm sitting here with a modded DTV dish, and no way to use it... except maybe try every single possible combination of frequency/polarization/symbol rate while pointed at this bird I'm aimed at now. Blast, why haven't they made a blind search app for these cards? Maybe I can make a fake sat transponder set that has EVERY combination in it, as a very crude blind search. Would only take a few weeks to run through it..

Any advice? If I ever get this working, I'll use my digital camera and do a step-by-step guide on my ghetto mod. It'd be kinda fun

 

[PSB]

Home Depot TV IA-6

http://www.lyngsat.com/ia6.html

 

[ken2400]

Thanks for the QUICK replay PSB! I keep posting my finding but will batch them up to save time.

Home Depot TV IA-6

http://www.lyngsat.com/ia6.html

 

[CharredPC]

You have a rare lnbf with the Teflon wedge, or did you remove a strip of cast metal?

I'm very lucky and have one with your initial easy-to-work-with teflon wedge design.

On my first lnbf experiment I lowered the DRO by using the adjustment screw. That allowed me to capture the upper transponder of A5. I was able to turn the screw more and scan in an additional transponder, but the signal (not quality) level fell dramatically. The oscillator was loading down heavily. That's one reason why it's necessary to modify the DRO. I connected a signal meter in series with the lnbf to monitor the signal level while turning the adjustment screw. The more I adjusted down the DRO in frequency, the weaker the output signal became.

This is one of the reasons why (though I have no blind scan) I decided to call my mod a success. Reception (purely signal-wise, not quality) was MUCH better in the lower frequencies after the mod, as compared to before.

You really need a frequency counter or at least a blind search receiver to get results and have fun at the same time. Consider also, are the two monopole antennas fully 90 degrees apart and positioned H/V? I've found design variations between lnbfs. Not all are 90 degrees, more like 70, and I avoid them if I want usable voltage switched polarities.

Yep, 90 degrees apart. Though positioned cockeyed, of course; like, 10 and 2 instead of 12 and 3, so to speak.

I assume your 18" dish is secure and pointed at the AMC-4 / DTV orbital slot, targeted by using a stock DSS lnbf and DTV IRD, or a signal meter. Are you confident that the dish position isn't another variable to add to your blind search definitions?

Sort of. As a semi-test, I locked the dish onto Echo7 while doing the mod. When the mod was complete (as long as the wedge was inserted, and after some fine tuning with the set screw) I could still recieve Echo7; but only up to the 12224.00 mhz transponder. That was my apparent new top-limit (unless the skew was out of whack, causing transponders to be too off frequency from there on to lock in). The problem is, Echo7 is a circular-polarized-only bird AFAIK, and set to DBS. So I couldn't test my new setup with that. I had to leave the bird and scan for another; between not having blind scan and not knowing what bird I was hitting (same thing, I guess, in a way) I couldn't lock onto a V/H polarized true Ku bird.

PS. Thinking about converting an analogue camera to a digital camera for taking those pictures you promised?

I'm writing up a guide this minute, complete with digital pictures. Expect it posted within the next hour. (EDIT: Will post it in a new thread to avoid confusion ) While I couldn't 100% verify my results by locking onto a Ku bird, I feel it was only due to the limitations of my owning a Twinhan instead of a set-top blind scanning reciever. Seeing as I'm in the minority there, the guide will probably help many others get some use out of the "junk" DTV setups we see litterring porches, roofs, and garbage bins across the land

CharredPC

PS. (Edit) Part One of the guide has now been posted.
PPS. My Winegard 31" / SG2100 / Universal LNB / Heavy duty universal wall/roof mount package was ordered yesterday!! w00t! For those in the market, it was a mere $164.95, shipping included. I'll have it in under a week!