Ala Carte? No Thanks!

[charper1]

If in any other part of the economy, some one told you you had to buy an unrelated item to get the item you want, you'd scream bloody murder, colusion and maybe even file a law suit!

Well I can say on this part at least it DOES happen; just look at grocery store coupons/promos as one tiny example that happens each and every day without fail. We can ignore that and shop how we want, but will not get that advertise overall savings; which is somewhat similar.

 

[TNGTony]

You are missing my point. You dont HAVE to use the coupon! You don't HAVE to take the bulk deal! With cable you do.

Let's take a hard example! I can "save $5" at my local kroger if I buy 10 cans of Chef Boyardee pasta meals at a time. Normally the cans sell for $1.50 each, but they are on "plus card sale" for $10 for $10 cans!

In a grocery store I can CHOOSE to buy 10 Chef Boyardee cans for $10. Or I can CHOOSE to buy one can for $1.50! If I only want two cans I can SAVE $7 by NOT taking the sale price and buying a la carte!

Do I pay more per unit, YUP! Do I pay more all together? Nope. Does the store make more money from me per unit? Yep! Everyone is happy!

With cable you HAVE to buy it all or you get NONE of it!

So no, it DOESN'T happen elsewhere. Everywhere else you have an OPTION to buy a package if it suits you. You don't HAVE to take it if you don't want it all!

Do you see the difference here?

I am not saying, "get rid of packageing". I am saying to allow the choice!

The resistance to this very simple thing by consumers to ALLOWING (not forcing) choice is totally baffling to me! Normally I can see the other side of the argument, but here I really can't! The reaslons given as to why FORCED packaging is a good thing seem contived and counter-intuitive.

See ya
Tony

 

[Greg Bimson]

The resistance to this very simple thing by consumers to ALLOWING (not forcing) choice is totally baffling to me! Normally I can see the other side of the argument, but here I really can't! The reaslons given as to why FORCED packaging is a good thing seem contived and counter-intuitive.

Well, speaking for me, I don't particularly have an issue if "a la carte" were to ever be done.

The "FUD" is because of the one issue you haven't addressed: how would a la carte be implemented? Because unless the government is involved, there is no way the programmers and the multichannel vendors will stop ramming channels into packages. It nets both of them better money.

And if a la carte is ever given some kind of green light, you will see that channel price will be significant, even for channels with lower viewership. I would not be suprised if the ESPN package ends up at $10 a month, and even Nickelodeon and Disney bordering on the absurd. Because these guys want you to buy packages.

 

[BabaLouie]

You are missing my point. You dont HAVE to use the coupon! You don't HAVE to take the bulk deal! With cable you do.

Let's take a hard example! I can "save $5" at my local kroger if I buy 10 cans of Chef Boyardee pasta meals at a time. Normally the cans sell for $1.50 each, but they are on "plus card sale" for $10 for $10 cans!

In a grocery store I can CHOOSE to buy 10 Chef Boyardee cans for $10. Or I can CHOOSE to buy one can for $1.50! If I only want two cans I can SAVE $7 by NOT taking the sale price and buying a la carte!

Do I pay more per unit, YUP! Do I pay more all together? Nope. Does the store make more money from me per unit? Yep! Everyone is happy!

With cable you HAVE to buy it all or you get NONE of it!

So no, it DOESN'T happen elsewhere. Everywhere else you have an OPTION to buy a package if it suits you. You don't HAVE to take it if you don't want it all!

Do you see the difference here?

I am not saying, "get rid of packageing". I am saying to allow the choice!

The resistance to this very simple thing by consumers to ALLOWING (not forcing) choice is totally baffling to me! Normally I can see the other side of the argument, but here I really can't! The reaslons given as to why FORCED packaging is a good thing seem contived and counter-intuitive.

See ya
Tony

Well-put.

It looks to me as though things will move toward internet delivery, which may well result in ala-carte offering (of individual channels and/or programs). If satellite and cable vendors don't wake up in time, they may well find themselves unable to survive in this environment. I, for one, will not shed any tears for them if that is the case.

 

[jayn_j]

Well, speaking for me, I don't particularly have an issue if "a la carte" were to ever be done.

The "FUD" is because of the one issue you haven't addressed: how would a la carte be implemented? Because unless the government is involved, there is no way the programmers and the multichannel vendors will stop ramming channels into packages. It nets both of them better money.

And if a la carte is ever given some kind of green light, you will see that channel price will be significant, even for channels with lower viewership. I would not be suprised if the ESPN package ends up at $10 a month, and even Nickelodeon and Disney bordering on the absurd. Because these guys want you to buy packages.

I wouldn't turn down a well executed ala-carte either, but I don't think it can be done. I detailed that pretty much the same way as you several responses ago, but Tony kind of ignored that and went back to the party line that everybody is spouting FUD.

It seems apparant to me that Tony is on a mission from God and I am now at the point where I need to stop teaching the pig to sing.

One last thing. As others have mentioned, I can think of many, many areas where bundling is mandatory. Another example, have you ever had a part break on your car, gone to the dealer and found that you have to buy the entire sub-assembly, BECAUSE IT IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE to stock every little part?

 

[riffjim4069]

People keep mentioning legislation and regulation...why would we need these when governments only role would be to stop programmers from colluding and packaging fixing (a form of price fixing)? Again, I am all install favor of packaging and grouping channels, but people need a lot more choices, people want a lot more programming choices, and people should not get stuck paying for programming they do not want just because a few large programmers say so.

I would like my a la carte a la mode. (grin)

I wonder if Scott will readress the ala carte issue...

((PDA Mode))

 

[Greg Bimson]

People keep mentioning legislation and regulation...why would we need these when governments only role would be to stop programmers from colluding and packaging fixing (a form of price fixing)?

I usually don't do this. But I am getting a little more cantankerous as I am getting older: prove collusion and packaging fixing. Collusion only occurs when two entities get together to harm a third, while "packaging fixing" occurs more often than you'd believe. Just so that everyone is on the same page:

Judge Sides With Programmers - For Now - In A La Carte Case

A consumer lawsuit, filed in Los Angeles challenging the lack of availability of a la carte pay TV programming, is still alive but only if the plaintiffs' attorneys can convince a federal court judge that the actions of major media companies offering programming only in packages violates anti-trust laws.

[...]

Consumers served by Comcast Corp. Cox Communications Inc., Time Warner Cable, Charter Communications Inc., Cablevision Systems Corp. DirecTV and Dish Network sued those providers, as well as programming producers NBC Universal Inc., Viacom Inc., the Walt Disney Co. and Fox Entertainment Group Inc.

[...]

Cable operators and programmers’ chief defense is that competition among programmers for distribution, as well as competition among distributors for paying subscribers, ensures that no one is required by law to sell channels a la carte just because they have the means to do so.

A notice the the people that want a la carte: your multichannel platform of choice doesn't want it. The operators are defendants in this case, and are standing with the programmers on this issue.

 

[Tyralak]

In this day and age why are my choices limited to the 100 ounce Big Gulp, 200 ounce Huge Gulp, and 250 ounce Mega Gulp...when all I want is a simple 12 ounce drink? Can you imagine going into a restaurant and being charged for every entree on the menu? Hell, I don't like scrapple (typical cable filler channel) so why should I pay for scrapple? Heck, the mere though of scrapple being placed on my table is enough to trigger the old gag reflex. And people wonder why we're a fat, lazy, super-sized society.

Um, isn't that exactly what a hot dog is? And it can't be any worse than Vegimite. Foul business, that stuff is.

 

[TNGTony]

I wouldn't turn down a well executed ala-carte either, but I don't think it can be done. I detailed that pretty much the same way as you several responses ago, but Tony kind of ignored that and went back to the party line that everybody is spouting FUD.

Saying something wont work because I can't tell you a business plan is ludicrus don't you think?

I DID respond exactly how it could be done with the gas company's scheme of having a delivery fee. With my gas company I pay an infrastructure fee every month whether I use a single ounce of gas or not. Then I pay a fee for each CCU of Gas.

I also gave you my phone company's a la carte scheme. I pay for "dial tone" every month. That fee is the same whether or not I use the phone every month. Then I pay for my a la carte services. In my case I pay for unlisted service $1.00 a month, and phone number only caller ID. Another $3 a month. I pay 3 cents per minute on calls. Total bill about $22 a month (including taxes and other FCC fees). If I could not get this service a la carte, I would have to get the "complete connections" package for $39.99 a month! I save money, the phone company still makes money at a higher margin.

I also had an example of how everyone can benefit by having "package pricing" AND a la carte with the real-life grocery store example. I just bought my two Beef-a-Roni cans for $3 tonight (not 10 for $10) because these two cans will last me more time than I feel comfortable having food sit on the shelf!

It seems apparant to me that Tony is on a mission from God and I am now at the point where I need to stop teaching the pig to sing.

The problem is you are trying to tell me that NOT HAVING A CHOICE is better than having a choice. That is completely counter to a free market economy!

One last thing. As others have mentioned, I can think of many, many areas where bundling is mandatory. Another example, have you ever had a part break on your car, gone to the dealer and found that you have to buy the entire sub-assembly, BECAUSE IT IS NOT COST EFFECTIVE to stock every little part?

Nope! I go to the guy down the road that can get the part and fix the car for less than the dealer in the first place without having to replace everything. With cable/satellite I don't have that choice because it is the distributor and content owner that controls the retail sale package. In no other part of the economy is this true! Give me any example of forced packageing and I will show you a way around it... anywhere EXCEPT cable/satellite.

This pig can sing. It's just a different tune than you are playing!

 

[stevenl]

If in any other part of the economy, some one told you you had to buy an unrelated item to get the item you want, you'd scream bloody murder, colusion and maybe even file a law suit!

How much money does a brick & mortar store get for any one item they sell? I bet you it's much, much less than 60%!!!!

Less then 60%? Monster Cable are upwards of 100% markup or more.

 

[stevenl]

If in any other part of the economy, some one told you you had to buy an unrelated item to get the item you want, you'd scream bloody murder, colusion and maybe even file a law suit!

How much money does a brick & mortar store get for any one item they sell? I bet you it's much, much less than 60%!!!!

Saying "A la carte won't work" is absolute FUD! How do I know this? Look at EVERY other part of ANY consumer service!!! EVERYTHING is a la carte! Even untilities like phone, electric and gas are a la carte!

I can have basic "dial-tone" metered service for $12 a month. I can add or take away from that any service I want. I can have any individual feature without having to have any other feature. Or, I can get a package called "complete connections that includes everything for less than if I would have bought them a la carte. But you see, I want "dial tone" and unlisted service with number only caller ID for $14. I do not want complete connections which is what I would have to get to get the same thing in a package for $39.95 a month!

Why can't cable do that? Because they don't want to. They (media/cable industry) have also brainwashed much of the population and legislators to believe that "it can't be done" and "it will never work".

Would packages be cheaper for those that want it all, or at least a ton of channels? Yup! Would most people get a package if available? Yup! Would a la carte kill cable, cause childern to use durgs, kill plant life, crash the stock market, and cause even more global warming? Nope!
Can you have a la carte AND packages at the same time? HELL YES! Nothing says that one has to preclude the other! It's all about customer choice.

See ya
Tony

--BTW: For those that do not know
FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt
It is not a slur or an insult.

First off until the digital revolution it would of been completely impossible for cable to offer ala carte, and even now with analog channels its dam near impossible. Without forceing you to have a box.

I would much rather spend 29.95 a month to have 100+ channels, then spend 30$ a month to have less, even if it only included the channels I watched the most.

Id assume if they did ala carte theyd have to have a minimum rate, perhaps of 10-20/month then they would say you get 5-10 channels included from List A (of course list A includes the free/cheap channels) Then you can buy channels from the other tiers and add on. So you may save 10-20 a month on your bill but you will have a huge % less options...

 

[stevenl]

You are missing my point. You dont HAVE to use the coupon! You don't HAVE to take the bulk deal! With cable you do.

Let's take a hard example! I can "save $5" at my local kroger if I buy 10 cans of Chef Boyardee pasta meals at a time. Normally the cans sell for $1.50 each, but they are on "plus card sale" for $10 for $10 cans!

In a grocery store I can CHOOSE to buy 10 Chef Boyardee cans for $10. Or I can CHOOSE to buy one can for $1.50! If I only want two cans I can SAVE $7 by NOT taking the sale price and buying a la carte!

Do I pay more per unit, YUP! Do I pay more all together? Nope. Does the store make more money from me per unit? Yep! Everyone is happy!

With cable you HAVE to buy it all or you get NONE of it!

So no, it DOESN'T happen elsewhere. Everywhere else you have an OPTION to buy a package if it suits you. You don't HAVE to take it if you don't want it all!

Do you see the difference here?

I am not saying, "get rid of packageing". I am saying to allow the choice!

The resistance to this very simple thing by consumers to ALLOWING (not forcing) choice is totally baffling to me! Normally I can see the other side of the argument, but here I really can't! The reaslons given as to why FORCED packaging is a good thing seem contived and counter-intuitive.

See ya
Tony

You dont have to buy cable or satellite. Its a luxury item.. You can use an antenna.

Telling the government to jump in is not the answer. (if thats what you advocate) as you said I beleive we should "Let the Market handle it" and thus far the market is saying bundles are king... Just look at all the hoopla over how many HD channels provider A has.. Regardless of the quality of them.

 

[TNGTony]

You dont have to buy cable or satellite. Its a luxury item.. You can use an antenna.

You don't have to buy ANYTHING other than food. Even that you can grow if you can find the right place to squat. So what is your point?

Telling the government to jump in is not the answer. (if thats what you advocate) as you said I beleive we should "Let the Market handle it" and thus far the market is saying bundles are king... Just look at all the hoopla over how many HD channels provider A has.. Regardless of the quality of them.

The government has only a few functions. One of them is to break up monopolies so the market can do its thing. What we have now is not a classic monopoly, but it is only a few companies that control the entire distribution scheme that most of the population uses for entertainment and information services. This oligopoly needs to be told it cannot force subscribers to buy things they do not want. I am not saying tear the whole thing down. I am saying ALLOW subscribers the choice.

But now we are getting away from the initial point. The original point is that a la carte CAN work given the chance. Scott said it can't, I disagree with every fiber of my being! The rest is another argument!

See ya
Tony

 

[TNGTony]

First off until the digital revolution it would of been completely impossible for cable to offer ala carte, and even now with analog channels its dam near impossible. Without forceing you to have a box.

I would much rather spend 29.95 a month to have 100+ channels, then spend 30$ a month to have less, even if it only included the channels I watched the most.

Id assume if they did ala carte theyd have to have a minimum rate, perhaps of 10-20/month then they would say you get 5-10 channels included from List A (of course list A includes the free/cheap channels) Then you can buy channels from the other tiers and add on. So you may save 10-20 a month on your bill but you will have a huge % less options...

Sigh...

Every time I think I am making headway, the argument changes!!!!

Addressable boxes have been around since 1980 for cable! I had that with the old "qube" system on Warner Amex.

If you would like to have 100 channels for $29.95, that is fine. KEEP THE PACKAGE!!!!! I am not now, nor have I EVER said to get rid of packages all together!!! EVER!!!!

However, if I or anyone else wants to get 10 channels for $15 or 15 channel for $25, or even 30 channels for $50 because some are not available in the package with 100 channels, why would you be against it? How does that harm you?

See ya
Tony

 

[TNGTony]

Less then 60%? Monster Cable are upwards of 100% markup or more.

Not everything is "monster cable". Mark-up on most items in most stores is MUCH less than 60%. And in other posts I have shown how an a la carte customer would probably pay a higher mark-up than a package customer making that a la carte customer MORE profitable. But again, this is another argument

See ya
Tony

 

[stevenl]

You don't have to buy ANYTHING other than food. Even that you can grow if you can find the right place to squat. So what is your point?



The government has only a few functions. One of them is to break up monopolies so the market can do its thing. What we have now is not a classic monopoly, but it is only a few companies that control the entire distribution scheme that most of the population uses for entertainment and information services. This oligopoly needs to be told it cannot force subscribers to buy things they do not want. I am not saying tear the whole thing down. I am saying ALLOW subscribers the choice.

But now we are getting away from the initial point. The original point is that a la carte CAN work given the chance. Scott said it can't, I disagree with every fiber of my being! The rest is another argument!

See ya
Tony

The subscribers have a choice.. They can choose to use cable or satellite, and if they want Ala carte then use their $ to force cable/dish to change. Until the demand is there from the customers why would cable change? Just look at this board as an example. The majority are against ala carte.. Which is why cable/dish are the way they are.. The market has demanded "more more more" in terms of number of channels. It has not demanded less less less.. The market is working and its why Directv is spending a fortune to get "more" hd channels then anyone else. Because that is what the market wants.

They are not forcing anyone to subscribe to anything they do not want to.. You dont need cable to live.. You need food. Water, etc.. Cable is a luxury so no one is buying anything they dont choose to buy.

There is no more a monoply then "big oil" or "big tabacco" or "Big Pharmacy" etc.. They are all includeing "big tv" controlled by the market.. The market accepts what it is given so the market continues to grow and thrive.. Government regulation would only hurt it more... Government regulation is a big part of the problem now with tv service.. I bet you have at least 10-15$ on your bill because of "Government regulation"

 

[stevenl]

Sigh...

Every time I think I am making headway, the argument changes!!!!

Addressable boxes have been around since 1980 for cable! I had that with the old "qube" system on Warner Amex.

If you would like to have 100 channels for $29.95, that is fine. KEEP THE PACKAGE!!!!! I am not now, nor have I EVER said to get rid of packages all together!!! EVER!!!!

However, if I or anyone else wants to get 10 channels for $15 or 15 channel for $25, or even 30 channels for $50 because some are not available in the package with 100 channels, why would you be against it? How does that harm you?

See ya
Tony

If the packages are allowed to stay, I have no problem with Ala carte. Just dont complain about having to pay a "commitment fee" (like your 8$ for gas. Then a fee for each box you have (because a box is the only way its feasable.) and even then they would have to be a 100% digital system. Because otherwise they would need to put traps on every line for every channel you do not want, that is analog. and a single channel trap can cost in the 100s of dollar range. I doubt you want to pay that fee. So until cable is 100% digital Ala Carte is not an option.. The sat companies could offer it though, and I think they did but the market had no interest in it...

 

[stevenl]

Not everything is "monster cable". Mark-up on most items in most stores is MUCH less than 60%. And in other posts I have shown how an a la carte customer would probably pay a higher mark-up than a package customer making that a la carte customer MORE profitable. But again, this is another argument

See ya
Tony

You ever buy nike shoes? Or Levi jeans? Id bet you there is more then a 60% markup.. To say "most" is a stretch. in the Food industry id say that was true. Most food has very low markup "Low Margin Business" but most retail shops have a much larger markup. Just look at the whole sale prices of alot of goods you buy. Goto distributer's websites. You will see you can buy 100 socks for 1$ each but you goto the store and its 4$...

 

[charper1]

Most normal markups are double the cost to produce.

 

[TNGTony]

Every one of the posts after mine do not go to the REAL argument here. I give up. You are all correct! Choice is bad. No way the world could work if you have a choice!

BTW the cost to produce something is NOT what retailers get product for. Some of you need to work in retail for a while to see what the real mark-up is on most stuff. You would be surprised how LOW it is!

See ya
Tony