8PSK Module

[hd fan]

zamar 23. the coolsat 8100 has 8psk bulit in , it is not the turbo 8psk module that pirates use.

and i thought i was breaking the law , lol. good to know it is just CA data on the stream and it is still in the clear.

BTW , I had to go to the house of another friend to fix the motorized system I installed for them. this cuban (well if it is a friend more likely it is cuban and after 7 years in canada this does not make me laugh of course) was mowing the lawn , well with a machete the cuban way , and hit with dish strongly and apparently misaligned it. the guy is very heavy BTW. the fact is that he has a SonicView 8000HD and despite the manual and their website does not mention MPEG4 , this receiver also gets FTV HD in MPEG4. The question is how come this manufacturers do not advertise this properly and on top of that how come they do not put it in the features section or the technical specs in their user guides?. 3 receivers so far that do not explicitly and clearly states that they can handle mpeg4. Unbeleivable !!!.

 

[zamar23]

hd fan

I don't have an S2 capable receiver at the moment. How would you know that the channel you lock in is in fact S2 / 8psk / MPEG4 / 4.2.2 etc.? Does it ID these signal characteristics anywhere in channel info in the receiver? I know, Lyngsat shows that info for channels it lists, but what about the actual receiver?

 

[Mr Tony]

Those $ things don't necessarily mean the channel is scrambled. I see those appear in a lot of channels that are actually FTA. I think it just comes from one bit being set in the stream making the receiver THINK that it might be scrambled. It was NOT encrypted about a week or 2 ago, when I tuned to that channel.

There are some channels on C-Band that are like that and I remember when 3ABN on AMC4 use to show the $$ sign but its in the clear.

 

[B.J.]

hd fan

I don't have an S2 capable receiver at the moment. How would you know that the channel you lock in is in fact S2 / 8psk / MPEG4 / 4.2.2 etc.? Does it ID these signal characteristics anywhere in channel info in the receiver? I know, Lyngsat shows that info for channels it lists, but what about the actual receiver?

Sometimes there is an NIT stream in the signal that might identify whether it's 8PSK, etc, however the NIT streams are incorrect more often than they are correct. Basically, if you can lock the signal with your receiver in DVB-S2 8PSK mode, then it's DVB-S2 8PSK, and if you lock it in DVB-S mode, then it's DVB-S, etc, etc.

 

[zamar23]

So the receiver will autoselect (hopefully) the proper mode at blind scanning channels, lock the signal, then show the mode it selected for each channel - on what screen (if any)? Or, the only way to ID the mode selected would be to check a particular found channel with Lyngsat? If using a DVB-S2 PC Card with TSReader or Transedit - will this soft show the above info, i.e. broadcast standard, modulation, compression, chroma, encryption version, etc.? Or it only shows channel PIDs?

 

[hd fan]

exactly as BJ says . With the Coolsat 8100HD it does not even have blind scan not even for regular QPSK and when it does the Auto Scan it only scans the TP on its list and only using QPSK so for the other signals you have to scan it manually and the Uruguayan Mux only locks when you select DVB-S2 (NBC) 8PSK in the menu. Note that even if you select DVB-S2 (NBC) QPSK it will not lock as this mux uses 8PSK. this Coolsat calls it NBC and probably means Non Backwards Compatible meaning that is not compatible with DVB-S receivers. also make sure Pilot is Off , even at my home with the 33"Fixed dish and 99 Quality (this Coolsat scale seems too optimistic to me but who knows) it only locks when Pilot setting is Off probably because there are no pilot carriers being sent of course.

This DVB-S2 system is so powerful that as per this white paper http://www.dvb.org/documents/white-papers/wp06.DVB-S2.final.pdf it can even work at C/N levels of - 2 dB , that means 2 dB below the noise floor. As you can read the pilot is used in such cases below noise floor to recover the carrier so in generally we regular FTA'ers will probably hardly ever use it.

The only 2 major differences between DVB-S and DVB-S2 are:

- DVB-S2 could use Variable Coding and Modulation (meaning it could use different kinds depending on the application)

- DVB-S2 could use Adaptative Coding and Modulation (in this mode apparently the code rates (FEC Value) could change frame by frame)

DVB-S2 could use 4 kinds of modulation Squemes , QPSK and 8PSK for most applications. For very professional applications with semi-linear transponders 16APSK and 32APSK could be used (APSK not only shifhts the phase (P) but also the amplitude (A) of the carrier changes)

DVB-S2 could use both transport streams TS either MPEG2 and MPEG4

So in other words a broadcast could be 8PSK and still it is DVB-S as DVB-S could also use even 16QAM as a modulation scheme.

A broadcast could be MPEG4 and still be DVB-S as with for instance FashioTV HD (very high quality picture by the way and the girls!!!!! lol).

If I had Lyngsat.com as my holly bible before or at least pages of it (I am an aethist Telecomm Eng , at least in Cuba I can claim that, therefore technical papers are my bible) now it has gotten a new dimension as with most current equipment you still need to configure manually everything properly for it to work. No blind Scan capabilities. And Lyngsat lists that information very accurately most of the time, with all due respect to the also ver usefull The List that this forum maintains.

And now back to the patio searching for other signals , the hobby has just begun.

If someone could help me change the regime in Havana so I could be able to do all this back there it will be very appreciate it, lol.

 

[hd fan]

BTW I forgot to mention that on this Uruguayan MUX this coolsat 8100 claims they are all (6 in total) SD and 1080i which does not make sense to me. probably a glitch on the software. the picture quality it is not 1080i either as it has no high definition to my eyes when compared with other HD channels OTA. The HDMI connection works flwalessly and I am outputting 1080i with no problem. I would prefer passthrough capabilities though. Uruguay uses the european PAL and even the PAL channels from Spain that are not encrypted they show SD 480i. It could be that because it is MPEG4 the receiver soft shows it as 1080i. The Sonicview 8000HD on the info banner it specifies if the channel is MPEG2 or MPEG4 , this coolsat not. It only highlights the SD icon or not or changes from 480i to 1080i the icon in the info banner. But it is just a minor thing.

I guess the use of a DVB-S2 capable PCI card for my PC and TSReader wil be the next purchase eh?. Any recommendations B.J.?

 

[zamar23]

hd fan

From you temperamental explanation I can catch that one would usually need to ID a channel at Lyngsat or Wild Feeds Thread as DVB-S2, 8psk, MPEG4, Chroma, Nagra 2 / 3, etc., and then enter that info creating a new channel in the receiver (if it allows to edit or create channels), select DVB-S2 option (if available) and scan hopping for the best. Once channel is locked, it will not show any of the above info. Some receivers may show some of that info by highlighting an icon on Channel Info Bar.

So now everything looks turned around and upside down to me. Instead of the receiver showing all relevant info for each channel it locked in, a human must tell the receiver what that info should be. And even then the receiver will not show that info as a reminder. LOL Even if a receiver had a separate S2 or combo S/S2 Blind Scan, it will not show the above info for the channels it found - that's something, firmware developers should think about.

As to regime change in Cuba, there may be something positive about it too - don't you think? Cuban friends, an interesting job, bananas, good medical care, a common spirit if you will. Last time they show Fidel, he looked real tired running on a trade mill. May be your wish will come sooner than you expect. I'm surprised he managed to stay afloat after his big brother abandoned Cuba.

 

[brentb636]

The cs8000 does not show any quality on a dvb-S2 freq until all the information ( FEC, Pilot ON/OFF, QPSK/8PSK ) is accurate, THEN it shows Q and you can be sure that you are about to scan a DVB-S2 tp. Until you get Q, don't bother to scan, it doesn't do "auto" anything in DVB-S2 manual scan, BUT it DOES indicate when you have good settings, with a Q reading.

 

[Anole]

in practice:

I think this was asked or hinted at earlier in the thread, and HD did touch on the answer, but at the end of a long post.

For the most part, Turbo 8psk is only used by Dish Network.
(yea, yea, we're not splitting hairs, here) -
So, having a Turbo-capable tuner is of most interest to the hacking community, not FTA users.
(again, North America, where the bulk of the SatGuy members reside...)

There are (may be) commercial receivers for Turbo.
However, I've not heard anyone talk about news trucks, uplinkers, or proprietary delivery systems using Turbo in North America.
(maybe they're under the radar) -

I don't know of any Turbo-capable tuner chips which work (are programmed to work) in non-turbo 8psk mode.
So, there is no clear excuse for a Turbo tuner.
... as it would likely be a Turbo-only tuner (but this is a guess)

The HD FTA receivers either come with a non-Turbo 8psk tuner, OR have a (third party - - ) add-on Turbo 8psk tuner.
That's on purpose to avoid persecution by Dish Network. -


NOW, if Turbo-8psk becomes somewhat commonplace in North America, the FTA manufacturers will have an EXCUSE to sell receivers for it.
That will really mean Dish Network can no longer point to Turbo-reception as being hack-hardware, as it basically is now.

 

[zamar23]

It appears that Broadcom Sat Receiver Chips BCM-4505 and BCM-4506 support both 8psk standard and Turbo decoding in contrast with BCM-4501 supporting only 8psk standard.

Professional Pay TV equipment due to high cost is of less interest to FTA fans, so its hard to find posts with its detail specs on FTA Forums. But for compatibility, cost and signal delivery efficiency reasons it probably uses the same chips as the end user receivers, which is easy to verify with its manufacturers. On top its safe to expect these high production volume chips to be used for similar applications outside of consumer and commercial arena, with only difference being stronger signal encryption. Yes, DN is free to point to any things as it chooses, but there are other companies pointing towards DN on various serious grounds. It doesn't mean, FTA fans can't discuss the industry technology advances, as it doesn't constitute theft of signal, intend or techniques to do so, but merely educational and promoting sat TV progress.

In fact, many posters in this forum advice others not to use 8psk turbo upgrade boards. BTW, are their any clear channels at all transmitted by DN with this modulation?

 

[Smith P.]

It appears that Broadcom Sat Receiver Chips BCM-4505 and BCM-4506 support both 8psk standard and Turbo decoding in contrast with BCM-4501 supporting only 8psk standard.

Professional Pay TV equipment due to high cost is of less interest to FTA fans, so its hard to find posts with its detail specs on FTA Forums. But for compatibility, cost and signal delivery efficiency reasons it probably uses the same chips as the end user receivers, which is easy to verify with its manufacturers. On top its safe to expect these high production volume chips to be used for similar applications outside of consumer and commercial arena, with only difference being stronger signal encryption. Yes, DN is free to point to any things as it chooses, but there are other companies pointing towards DN on various serious grounds. It doesn't mean, FTA fans can't discuss the industry technology advances, as it doesn't constitute theft of signal, intend or techniques to do so, but merely educational and promoting sat TV progress.

In fact, many posters in this forum advice others not to use 8psk turbo upgrade boards. BTW, are their any clear channels at all transmitted by DN with this modulation?

That's valid point and good reasoning regarding Turbo Code 8PSK technology; for you last question there was an answer in post#6, I recall all VOOM channels on 61.5 was ITC.

 

[hd fan]

as a very good cuban let me censorship myself and stop posting any info related to this matters, lol. not very hard to do for someone who never had internet nor the freedom to talk about anything, probably the reason of my extremely,I know, long posts. the weather is certainly nice down there and brutal over here but I rather get executed that being deported back to the island, lol. Prision Break does not have remakes for cubans, lol. (not funny but being a Cuban we always laugh in any circunstances and probably the reason why we still suffer the largest dictatorship ever or maybe second largest)

...What the heck!, Did not I left Cuba to enjoy freedom first and foremost? So here we go!.

I do not think really that other broadcasters or services will also use turbo-coded modulations as it apparently does not gain too much in terms of efficiency compared with the gain already obtained by using 8PSK with MPEG4 and it will indeed increase the operating costs for them. But as anything technology related , it will evolve and in the not so near future some other FTA services will use them but by them probably the pay providers will be using some other new technologies. I obviously was shading some light on this technologies and at the same time refreshing my brain and keeping it active.

As Anole pointed , an 8PSK Add-on Module, is only intended to be illegaly used with the turbo service from Dish Network. For 8PSK FTA broadcasts you only need an FTA 8PSK capable receiver.

BTW a correction to a previous post of mine. I said that there was no SAT key on the CoolSat 8100HD remote which is true but still you can press Fav and then it pops up a window to select either the SAT List you have scanned in or the up to 8 Favorite list you could have. It also allows you rename or add new sats. Very nice machine , very good picture quality over HDMI (I tested last night the ITC CH 805 OnHD from my Bell TV system and looks perfect). Now that I remember I also said that apparently the SD Icon either highlights or not but if tuned to an HD channel it actually changes to read HD and then 480i changes to 720p or 1080i accordingly.

Yeah , post too long already, I defenitely need a girlfriend, lol.

 

[Smith P.]

I'm totally disagree with Anole and your support of the "an 8PSK Add-on Module, is only intended to be illegally used with the turbo service from Dish Network".
FTA/ITC still moving targets in dish hunting hobby ( that's why blind scan invented, right ?) and if you did catch those channels without illegal decryption as ITC, there is no any law violation. Perhaps your self-censorship still prevailing ?

 

[Mr Tony]

I read it as "So, having a Turbo-capable tuner is of most interest to the hacking community, not FTA users." above, not a regular 8PSK module

post 70

 

[Anole]

For the longest time, I felt the QPH-031 LNB with both linear and circular capability was a total waste of money!
Why the heck would I want to swing a circular-capable LNB across the Ku-sky?
I know where the birds are, and the ones I subscribe to have separate fixed dishes for that purpose.
Finally, after many years, I'm beginning to see that -maybe- it would be slightly attractive for me.
With an emphasis on the: "for me".

It appears that Broadcom Sat Receiver Chips BCM-4505 and BCM-4506 support both 8psk standard and Turbo decoding in contrast with BCM-4501 supporting only 8psk standard.

With this revelation, maybe some FTA box manufacturer could come out with a multi-mode 8psk-capable receiver.
Or maybe a PCI card? USB box?
(well, unless the cost of the chip is prohibitive)
Right out of the box, it'd appeal to us for regular 8psk.
We could also watch FTE (forgot to encrypt) Turbo-8psk if we found 'em. - :up
And, the follow-on sales to the hackers would guarantee a long life to the product.

FTA/ITC still moving targets in dish hunting hobby ( that's why blind scan invented, right ?) and if you did catch those channels without illegal decryption as ITC, there is no any law violation.

I see why Smith jumped on my earlier comment , or at least HD's characterization of it.
His reply above is quite correct.
But I still maintain that -most- interest in Turbo (that is anything above 50%) is from the hacker community, today.
I don't believe there are a handful of intrepid FTAers who got the Turbo 8psk add-on board for their ... Pansat ... ? or whatever box, just to see what Dish or BEV left FTE.!.



btw, I'm not a Dish Nazi, the Turbo Police, or someone who gives a rats behind.
I'm just discussing the viability of a Turbo-capable tuner in the market place.
Rereading my post above, should clarify what little I'm trying to say.

 

[zamar23]

I agree with Smith that only attempts to illegally decrypt encrypted signal should be considered tabu. Its only natural for FTA fans, and there is nothing wrong in learning and trying to use new reception equipment and explore new signals coming from space, if the targeted signals are not encrypted. For many people FTA is an involving long term hobby after all!

Regarding the Multi-mode receiver, the Broadcom chips are more expensive, may be $20 per piece compare to $2 for Connexant chipset in volume orders. Because their functionality is mostly useful in NA and require a lot of programming efforts and good knowledge of the chips inner working (unless an existing design and firmware are clonned), EU/CN/GK/TW/SK Sat PC Card and Receiver makers are more inclined to invest in developing broader in demand "world models", unless they have a big US customer like SonicView hitting the door. But such customers often want to play safe, playing with "3-d party" upgrade boards, which is also more profitable. I.e., they sell a $5 Serial-to-Ethernet Dongle for $100 claiming its designed for a specific receiver, while packing a standard adapter into a branded 2 cent case and adding a short program to the receiver's firmware to securely check a remote server periodically and download firmware updates if available. Of course, such program will ID the Dongle to prevent using a generic one. LOL

hd fan

I hope you love Cuba more that you hate the regime. May be most Cubans are happy with it, as they do nothing to change things. When Fidel was unhappy with then existing regime, he let everyone notice. Btw was Guantanomo Bay Hospital shown in Moore's 'SICKO' modeled from Cuban Hospitals?

 

[Smith P.]

Anole, I recall that your post; just can't dismiss one very technical point of 8PSK demod chip attribution - the chip [BCM4500] is MULTI standard type, the TC 8PSK is only 1/6 of his functionality. And if my board carry the chip for QPSK/DC-II/DSS reception, I don't like to be pushed in that tabu field blindly. Guess, many owner of such boards too, who like do satDXing.
[Remind me a theme - why lawful citizen should have police scanner ? He can't listen law enforcement conversation !]

 

[Tron]

For the longest time, I felt the QPH-031 LNB with both linear and circular capability was a total waste of money!
Why the heck would I want to swing a circular-capable LNB across the Ku-sky?
I know where the birds are, and the ones I subscribe to have separate fixed dishes for that purpose.
Finally, after many years, I'm beginning to see that -maybe- it would be slightly attractive for me.
With an emphasis on the: "for me".

Actually, I've been getting quite a bit of use out of the circular sides of my QPH-031s recently (without going into specific detail on which satellite(s) , but I'm sure most here already know). The QPH is the perfect companion for a motorized dish, I just wish they weren't so expensive.

 

[photoman76]

There are two muxes on AMC 1 that use Turbo 8psk. One is Univision and the other is Telefutura. Both encrypted with PowerVu.