3rd opinion on NLOS/backstabbing customer

[Roadwarrior]

Says something, doesn't it ??

Alright. Here it is. I do my own taxes. I have never once gotten a return. As far as that 20 bucks goes, I probably would not have claimed it. Much like a waiter doesn't declare 100% of his tips. I would have considered that a tip.

I dropped out of college my sophmore year and went to work for a painting contractor. I am pretty much a lifer at blue collar work. I'm not as sophisticated or educated as most of you, which, I'm sure, is obvious.

I hope this makes some of you feel better. The fact remains that installers do not get a fair shake on here, and my sole purpose for participating in this forum is to rectify that, or at the very least, stand up for the trade. This is the reason for my bitter, nasty posts. I haven't gotten banned yet, so they must not be too bad.

After reading all these posts(and thank you for all your replies), I now see that I was fighting the wrong battle. Sure, I should not work for free, but I could have easily just called it NLOS and left. This would have been the smart thing to do.

 

[rcdallas]

Customer service.... gotta luv it.

Some people have kitchen ears, they only hear what they want to hear.

Simply put, just as the OP already said, just stick with doing what your supposed to do, don't give your personal opinion on things, stay from going out the way, above and beyond. Stick to your guns and be it.

I've done put my heart and soul in some installs where it was to the t and more, some it was because the customer wanted, and some of just for what I wanted. I've been burned and learned, just go on....

What some will do just for entertainment ???

Learn from the seasoned hack techs, they do it for a reason, because they know.

 

[Hall]

I don't think so, just means he doesnt want to argue the point with you.

Someone needs to read the thread again and see who said what...

 

[chadzx11]

Some of our techs have tried that, actually. Even when the customer wouldn't pay, they would still call Dish and complain that the techs tried to charge them, and then our manager would get reprimanded because we are not supposed to charge the customer. So, even if I were to charge my company, I doubt they would even acknowledge receipt of the bill. I doubt my office would even send it in with the paperwork. What exactly do you do in this regard? I am curious. Do you recover 100% of your losses this way?

As far as dead beat customers, I have no way of knowing who renigs on their contract or what. 95% of the time I never see or hear from those people again.(Unless they call me because they STILL don't understand what channel to put TV2 on).

The only customers I sent a bill to were people who ordered DTV, had it installed, failed the credit check, and failed to make the prepayment to directv and activate their service, as they promised TO ME, resulting in me having to run them to ground and repo the equipment. They had no quarrell with DTV since they were NOT DTV customers (they never activated). It should be noted that this came down in a time when NASCAR was on FX and a lot of cable companies didn't have FX. I actually had a few douchebags who thought they were gonna get away with activating their systems only for the 3 or so races on FX. When I found this out, I acted to protect my retailer and shortened the time I allowed the non hackers to get activated. In return, my retailer stood up for me, and told the dead beats to piss off, and I promise you, I pissed off more than one redneck nascar fan. Why should my retailer have to eat a chargeback for some douchebag who was planning to shaft them?

Dish Network would not allow us to bill customers. We filled out paysheets every week and submitted it with paperwork. I just put everything on there, and they would mark off what they weren't gonna pay for. Voila! Instant paper trail.

What I did:

NLOS = site survey @ $35 each

Chargebacks @ 100% of the amount charged back.

Installs start @ $75 and go up dependant on the # of TVs involved. These would be NLOS where you have to prove (in some manner of installation) to the customer that it doesn't work, or stuff like when you get to the end and the CSR says or does something to cause the customer to reneg (those are my favorites--like when they find out BET or LMN is not in the AT100 or that dish doesn't have the outdoor life channel---usually discovered by the customer when flipping channels, resulting in a second phone call, ect). Don't forget to charge for taking it down, either. Unless you did something wrong, then, you need to man up and eat it.

Customer no show were $50 if a wait was involved. $35/trip charge just for slapping that tag on the door.

Reinstalls billed as reinstalls ALWAYS, even when you know they won't pay more than a service call, because they are ripping you off. Plus, dish made it really hard to get a reinstall approved. Higher charges apply for unf'n self installs, on GP.

Dish relocates depended on the difficulty of the move, but I billed a minimum of $49. My D* retailer would pay, E* would not. My take is, if they don't want to see it on the pay sheet---send the original installer back.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Someone needs to read the thread again and see who said what...

This point is moot. I didn't get anything. I rarely even charge customers, and I've really never been in a situation quite like this. By the same token, it seems to me the customer could have just as easily written that off on his own taxes. The 20$ is nothing, I didn't even need it. My problem is, this guy had the money, nice vehicles, nice house, the whole package. And HE expected ME to do work for him for absolutely nothing. And I explained all of this to him, so he can't claim ignorance. And instead of telling me to hit the road, he decided he'd smile to my face and get what he wanted anyway through the use of backhanded methods. I was the only honest one in this scenario and I'm not going to be convinced otherwise. If the guy had lived in some ram shackle trailer out in the middle of BFE and did not have the option of OTA or cable, I would(and have) done everything I could for the guy to get it in, at no charge to him. Simply because most people don't have the tools or the know-how to do it themselves.

At any rate, my business is my business. The thread has nothing to do with taxes, and whatever I pay or don't pay is between me and the IRS. I am not a freeloader, if that's what you and Lakebum were trying to insinuate.

 

[dishcomm]

Ok, I think I've got a pretty good bead on how customers, Dish employees and retail installers feel about Sub Contractors. But I'm going to share a story with all of you anyway. Maybe this will give you some insight into our world.

I had a really crappy route the other day, 5 service calls and a one room dish mover, that was actually just a third opinion on a No line of sight. I drove a total of 230 miles that day, and made around $180. (I buy my own gas, I buy my own everything, for those of you who don't know what a sub contractor is). So I get to this guys house, he is completely treed in, but he thinks all the previous installers were just lazy, so he insists that I try a spot that he picked out where he is certain it will go. It was a pole mount, the ground was nothing but rocks. I knew it was not going to be easy, and I knew he was not going to get a signal. So I told the guy, alright, I'll try it here, but if it doesn't go in, you owe me 20$. I don't work for free, I don't care what any of you uppity f***s think. WE ARE NOT YOUR SERVANTS.(No, I did not curse at the customer, I was very pleasant)

He agreed. So i dug, and picked and cussed at that little spot of ground for over an hour, set the pole(used 50 lbs of concrete), pointed the dish(I could tell by my meter that i wasn't going to get 110 at all, and 119 would be less than impressive). I ran a wild line in through the front door and hooked his reciever up. Surprise surprise! I had a whopping 56 on the 119, and no 110. (this was a 311 reciever). But he doesn't understand how this stuff works, so i let it download a program guide so he could check his favorite channels. Every damned one of the ones he checked came in, no matter what channel i went to, none of them would lose signal! But I couldn't leave it like that, sooner or later he was gonna start losing signal, and start noticing the channels he was missing, and it would be nothing but a headache for my office forever, and it would ultimately cost me more than i made on the job. So I explained this to him, let him talk to one of our FSM's, who also explained to him why I couldn't leave it like that, he said ok, gave me my 20 bucks and I left. The MFer turns around and calls dish and tells them that I charged him 20 bucks to tell him it wouldn't go in, now I have to pay it back.


Long post, I know. The morale of the story is, from this point on, no customer is going to get anything out of me that's not on the work order, and I will not apologize when the job just won't go. Don't argue with me, don't whine, don't expect me to lose money because you don't understand . Live with it, or go back to cable.

Oh, you can charge a customer for a pole mount, or a mirrored line, or burying more than 50 feet of cable, but if they call Dish and bitch about it, you're in trouble.

A sub contracted installer is nothing more than an employee with no benefits. So the next time you guys start complaining about us, or talking trash about us, or just assuming that you are better than us, I encourage you to at least 'try' and look at things from our point of view.

P.S If you are going to ask why I don't just go get another job, my answer to that is, I already know how to do this, and jobs just don't fall out of the sky.

When I see a NLOS I let the customer know that aside form the obvious issues with the trees, etc. I have to be concerend about the future. I inform them that I must adhere to a policy that makes me responsible for the install and I throw in the integrity ingredient..I haven't had many second opinion complaints..What I do is invite the customer to call Dish and request a second opinion....I will not install a system that has "Trouble Call" written all over it..Had a dish mover like that. The guy never thought about his home purchase and the surrounding trees..He matter of factly said" oh well"....
I will not do an install I know is not going to work..I do not set "temporary dishes"..I am not going to make a dime off the time I spend ,so I just tell the customer temporary installs to "see" if it might work, are not part of the bargain..However I will not take an offer to do so either..In other words if the cust offers to pay me fora temp install, I decline..I tell them it is a violation of Dish policy to charge for this.
Now, the charges you described are legitimate and permitted by Dish...Anything outside the scope of the work order is considered chargeable to the customer..Look at the back of the Service Agreement...There is a 200 foot limit on the footage of cable inculded in a standard install..Also, large homes where there is a significant amount of work are also chargebale as "custom" work..YOU SHOULD NEVER get into trouble for this..If so , someone is screwing around with you...These charges are Dish policy...
When that "are you a contractor" question comes up, the hair on my neck stands up...I don't like discussing that. A few weeks ago a customer with an attitude asked me about that..My response was a sharp "what diffderence does that make"?.The customer backed off and the install went without a hitch.
I would say 75% of this job is knowing how to handle people.

 

[dishcomm]

I'll say it. You were in the wrong on all parts. There is a process for dealing with this, and it's not the Customer's fault that some idiot sent yet another tech out there to do an install that two techs already said can't be done. If you need your $20, get it from the idiot that sent you back out there. Rather than the home office having the balls to tell a customer it just won't work, they instead waste the time of a valuable sub-contractor to go and flog himself in an already loosing situation.

Two issues here.

#1 - There are idiot techs out there that get sent to do jobs they are not even slightly qualified to do thus office folk second guess the guys that do know what they are doing.
#2 - When it really can't be done, too many people seem unwilling to tell someone it can't be done. I'm shocked that Techs that are calling no go on installs are not documenting this with a digital camera somehow.

A bit harsh on the response but I give you kudos on the use of the camera...Pics don't lie..

 

[dishcomm]

Why are you charging a customer "under the table" ?? Did your company, or Dish, not pay you for the call regardless of whether or not it worked ?? That's like the installers who charge for the cables they took out of the receiver's box or charging for "special" installs. Dish should be charging the customer and then paying the installer or the installer's company. When a customer signs up and gets a "free" install, "free" doesn't mean paying cash directly to the installer. If extra cable is needed or a wall fish, authorize it through Dish, get the proper rate, and have Dish bill for it.

Here's the answer to your question..NLOS, Cust not home, we don't get paid..However itis a violation of policy to charge a customer in the manner the OP stated...I like that...It usually puts a stop to this nonsense of "oh just put it in and we'll see" garbage..

 

[dishcomm]

Here is another question (I'm pretty sure I already know the answer), Would you have reported that $20 on your taxes as income?

.....Yer kidding ,right?

 

[dishcomm]

What difference does it make? Should I have still worked for free? Nothing I do is good enough. If I had just bowed out and called it NLOS and told them they were TSOL, I would have been accused of
being lazy because "I didn't even try", and they would have called Dish back and demanded a 4th opinion, screwing with our completion rate further.

I am getting the inkling that there is an anti tech or an all techs are jerk message..
Let me straighten this out once for all..We bust our asses out there in all kinds of sh!tty weather, put up with kids, filthy homes, wildly growing shrubbery, hazardous conditions that few of these yellow bellied lightweights would even think about challenging, and all the while they whine like little schoolgirls because you just have to get HGTV....

I am sick of these friggin people who think if they spend dime one on their tv it is too much money..I am sick of "why is it so much money?".....
The people on here who chime in and actually believ we should do all kinds of stuff free of charge and they get all pissy when they are asked to pay for additional services should have to walk a mile in our shoes before they shoot off their pie holes..
People like the one you had to deal with are the reason why I am getting out of this business...Well not completely...I will continue to do private work but at MY rates. If they call and it's a bit more than they are willing oto pay, I am flexible. But only a little..If they want stuff on the cheap , they can go elsewhere..
I know of many people , good techs who have left the business to do Home theatre, structured wiring, etc..They won't touch a satellite system ever again.. ...What will happen is the only ones left to do the work will be inexperinced workers who are earning peanuts. And then we will see " you get what you pay for" kick in...then the bitching will really get going..
So those of you who think we techs are lazy overpaid jerks, keep it up...The next time you call Dish there will be an $11 per hour pot head at your door....Have fun with that..

 

[lakebum431]

.....Yer kidding ,right?

Nope, not at all, but this has already been answered and I'm not going to fight about it even though I think it is wrong. I would have the same comment about the comment regarding wait staff, but that is also off topic.

 

[dishcomm]

The difference is if you are collecting money "under the table" (I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this) it is wrong. I pay taxes on every dime I make, why shouldn't you have to as well? Are you better than me? If you don't like your job find another, it isn't as if you are in a highly skilled position where you would be missing out if you changed fields. There are a ton of jobs available. If you don't feel that you are being compensated enough for what you do then find a job that will compensate you fairly. I have zero sympathy for someone that complains but doesn't do anything about it.

OH...really?..I suppose if a customer offers a gratutity I should clain thatr on my taxes as well?...Hey, if you are inclined to report every dime of your income to the IRS, bully for you..some us work very hard for tips....And don't you dare try that guilt trip garbage...
BTW WE ARE HIGHLY SKILLED.....If you don't think so, pick up a tool belt a truck, ladder and l the tools we need and try this for a month..God Dammit I am sick of you people who sit back on your barcaloungers and criticize the people who provide for your leisure time enjoyment.

 

[dishcomm]

At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, but where in the original post does it sound like RR is unhappy with his job? At least to me, he's just very bitter with (a) the two-faced nature of his customer and (b) to a lesser degree, his own ignorance/over-trust of the customer and that particular situation he was faced.

And for the record, the whole "need to go back to school and get a REAL job" has a bit too much condensation and holier-than-thou attitude to me.

I would ask him myself, then after we all go get degrees and quit the business, who then besides a bunch of schlubs will be left to install their precious satellite system?...
That post smacks of elitism and a very small paradigm.
I am all for furthering one's education or training to improve their station in life.

 

[Hall]

I am getting the inkling that there is an anti tech or an all techs are jerk message..

Read my 1st two posts in this thread. I stated that if this is how Dish operates and the installers and install companies continue to put up with it, it ain't gonna change. When I go to work, I get paid. You guys may ... or may not. Now I understand why I read stories of an installer showing up, taking 5-10 minutes and declaring "NLOS" and leaving. They've already *wasted* the time it took to drive to the home and in some cases, gas and mileage on their vehicle. Of course, Dish doesn't want to pay for a non-install, but that's the risk they should be taking in their business. Not everyone can physically get satellite and there's no way to pre-screen customers for this.

On the other hand, there's installers here who will argue that you should spend as much time as possible to find a workable location for the dish. Heh, easy to say if you're paid hourly !! Remember the guy who spent 8+ hours on a relatively normal install other than dish locations ? He mounted (2) dishes in completely separate locations in order to get LOS.

 

[lakebum431]

OH...really?..I suppose if a customer offers a gratutity I should clain thatr on my taxes as well

SHOULD you according to the tax laws of this country? Yes, actually you should.

"Employee Compensation

Generally, you must include in gross income everything you receive in payment for personal services. In addition to wages, salaries, commissions, fees, and tips, this includes other forms of compensation such as fringe benefits and stock options. "

What is Taxable and Nontaxable Income?

I'm not trying to "guilt trip" you, just stating the facts. I really don't think there is anything else to say on that subject so I'll stop.

As far as the highly skilled comment. I'm not saying that being an installer doesn't take some training and practice, and believe it or not I have no problem with installers and have never once made a comment saying that I don't think they do a good job (at least the ones that installed my system - as I can't speak to any others since I have no personal experience with them). However, that being said, this is not a profession that I would categorize as "highly skilled" as I believe any able bodied person could complete the job if they wanted to. It is not something that I have ever done for a living, nor something that I would want to do for a living, so I'll polietly decline you invitation to do it for a month. Again, I'm really not trying to start a fight here, just giving my opinion.

 

[dishcomm]

Nope, not at all, but this has already been answered and I'm not going to fight about it even though I think it is wrong. I would have the same comment about the comment regarding wait staff, but that is also off topic.

Yer not going to fight about it?..How 'bout discussing it?..Who appointed you income tax monitor?
Here's a novel idea, mind you own business...If I accept a gratuity ,I will do what I wish..Tghe govt gets way too much of our money already..If you want to dig deepe3r, be my guest. Stay the hell out of my wallet.

 

[dishcomm]

Read my 1st two posts in this thread. I stated that if this is how Dish operates and the installers and install companies continue to put up with it, it ain't gonna change. When I go to work, I get paid. You guys may ... or may not. Now I understand why I read stories of an installer showing up, taking 5-10 minutes and declaring "NLOS" and leaving. They've already *wasted* the time it took to drive to the home and in some cases, gas and mileage on their vehicle. Of course, Dish doesn't want to pay for a non-install, but that's the risk they should be taking in their business. Not everyone can physically get satellite and there's no way to pre-screen customers for this.

On the other hand, there's installers here who will argue that you should spend as much time as possible to find a workable location for the dish. Heh, easy to say if you're paid hourly !! Remember the guy who spent 8+ hours on a relatively normal install other than dish locations ? He mounted (2) dishes in completely separate locations in order to get LOS.

On two occasions I helped a customer drop large trees with chain saws ropes and axes just to get the install completed
. Consider that when you look at installers and think about generalizing.

 

[rcdallas]

I once took my personal axe and chopped off a rather large branch in a hillbilly neighbor hood to get high def. For some reason after it was all said and done, I was laughing my ass off.

Only once I've had a customer come back with a chainsaw during the site survey and started choppin away. Jackson County baby!

 

[Jared Twomey]

As far as the highly skilled comment. I'm not saying that being an installer doesn't take some training and practice, and believe it or not I have no problem with installers and have never once made a comment saying that I don't think they do a good job (at least the ones that installed my system - as I can't speak to any others since I have no personal experience with them). However, that being said, this is not a profession that I would categorize as "highly skilled" as I believe any able bodied person could complete the job if they wanted to. It is not something that I have ever done for a living, nor something that I would want to do for a living, so I'll polietly decline you invitation to do it for a month. Again, I'm really not trying to start a fight here, just giving my opinion.

As an installer I wouldn't say it is a HIGHLY skilled profession... but I have seen plenty of self-installs to know that not just any "able bodied person" can do it successfully. There are a lot of jobs, jobs that are considered to be skilled professions, that any body can do with enough common sense and a little bit of playing around with it.

Hell, I just got done remodeling a house. I'm not a drywaller, an electrician, a plumber, a roofer, a sider, a cabinet installer, a carpet installer, a landscaper... but I did it all, and I can guarantee you that if you looked at the house, you could never tell the difference. I also just rebuilt my transfer case, never done that before, but i did it. About a month ago built a new computer... have no training in it though.

I guess my point is, can any one install? Sure, with enough common sense and a little bit of instruction on how to do it. Does that make this job one that requires no skill? Not in my opinion. There are a lot of "skilled" jobs that can be done just as easily by anyone with ambition.

Believe it or not, the majority of the general public has no idea how this stuff works, has no idea the difference between legacy, DP, and DPP equipment, and how to connect everything to make it work. Hell, if you asked most of the general public what a agile modulator was, I would venture to guess they couldn't tell you, let alone why it they may need to use one. Alot of people seem to think satellites work without line of sight... that is what started this whole thread. But an installer should be able to walk up on a job and determine that right away... does that take skill, I think so.

Does it take skill to troubleshoot some of the odd problems that can present themselves in some of these systems. I think so.

I don't know, maybe I am nieve because I do believe that to be a GOOD installer takes just as much skill as a lot of other "skilled" jobs.

 

[rcdallas]

It does.... there is many aspects and it aint just tuning some good for nothin dish either.