3rd opinion on NLOS/backstabbing customer

[Ronald_Jeremy]

It is a 4 room (2-dual tuner) dishmover. He went Monday and the guy wasn't home... called the guys cell phone and the guy goes "o, i forgot to call you, I had to leave... can we reschedule it or tomorrow"... installer is pissed, but understands and reschedules.
Goes back the next day and the customer is an hour late getting to the house at the time he said he would be there, my installer waits, the guy shows up, and doesn't have the receivers.

Kinda sucks when the person isn't there when they are supposed to be doesn't it??

Kinda sucks when the person doesn't have the right equipment doesn't it?

This happens every day. Except 99% of the time it is the installer that doesn't show up and when he does, he doesn't have the right equipment.

You don't like it do you? Welcome to the world of the end user!!!!

 

[dishrich]

So i dug, and picked and cussed at that little spot of ground for over an hour, set the pole(used 50 lbs of concrete), pointed the dish(I could tell by my meter that i wasn't going to get 110 at all, and 119 would be less than impressive).

Well I've got a question that seems pretty obvious to me - WHY in the world didn't you test the signal with a dish BEFORE you started all this work??? Granted, I've only been doing satellite since back in the BUD days, but it wouldn't have taken you much time to have verified this was NOT going to work anyway. I've checked many a NLOS like this & it has saved me MUCH work in the long run - it's NOT rocket science.

If you are not doing something like this, seems to me you LIKE doing extra work for free...

 

[chadzx11]

Guys, I just want to add that as subcontractors, you are running your own business, and you should be taking stuff like this as a write off. I always did. Never had a beef. I never billed a customer for a nlos, I always billed the company I contracted with (that's actually pretty important, as you want it in writing that they are REFUSING to pay you for a job you went on). However, when D* first started their credit checks, we had a lot of deadbeats that resulted in a lot of deinstalls for non activation. Since it was not the install companies fault, and it was 100% the fault of the customer, I billed everyone of the customers for both the install (75/25) and the deinstall (75/25). None of them paid (they were deadbeats after all). When I say deinstall, I mean deinstall. I took back all of MY property. NFW I was leaving it fully wired so they could go buy one from walmart and install it themselves.

 

[chadzx11]

Well I've got a question that seems pretty obvious to me - WHY in the world didn't you test the signal with a dish BEFORE you started all this work??? Granted, I've only been doing satellite since back in the BUD days, but it wouldn't have taken you much time to have verified this was NOT going to work anyway. I've checked many a NLOS like this & it has saved me MUCH work in the long run - it's NOT rocket science.

If you are not doing something like this, seems to me you LIKE doing extra work for free...

He said it was rocky. I personally would have driven the pole, but sometimes you have to dig or you will wreck it. Around here its not so rocky, I can drive a pole and remove it pretty easily. But if it was obvious it wouldn't work, I wouldn't bother. The customer asked for a 3rd opinion, not proof.

 

[dishrich]

He said it was rocky. I personally would have driven the pole, but sometimes you have to dig or you will wreck it. Around here its not so rocky, I can drive a pole and remove it pretty easily. But if it was obvious it wouldn't work, I wouldn't bother.

I don't think you understand my point - you do NOT necessarily have to drive ANY poles to test signals with a dish. You CAN hold the dish (with your bare hands, you know ) on a temporary surface/mount for testing purposes, BEFORE you drive anything in the ground. It' doesn't take but a couple min to tell if it's gonna work or not. As I said, I've done this several times over the years & it's saved me much grief - but again, if you REALLY like doing xtra work...

 

[RVD420]

I feel for installers who have to deal with people who have 3,4, or even 5 different installers come out an say NLOS.

I also feel for the customers who have to deal with lazy installers.

2 years ago, when my dad moved into his new house he had a dish installer tell him NLOS.

My dad and I knew it was BS. It was drizzling that day and the lazy installer didn't want to get wet. And instead of being honest the installer said NLOS.

So I took an old Dish 500 with a Twin Legacy LNB and one of my Dish receivers (3900) and do an install for my dad (112 signal on 119 and 108 on 110). My dad calls up and 2 days later a different installer comes out. My dad explains the situation and the installer even said the 1st installer was lazy. The 2nd installer swapped out the LNB and gave the one I brought back to me along with a new dish (he kept the one I installed in place) hooked up the receivers and called for activation. He commented on the quality of the installaion, and when I told him that I had installed sattv for 3 years and when I was installing I had gotten level 2 certifaction through the SBCA. He told me if I ever needed a job to give him a call.

 

[Tyralak]

Ok, I think I've got a pretty good bead on how customers, Dish employees and retail installers feel about Sub Contractors. But I'm going to share a story with all of you anyway. Maybe this will give you some insight into our world.

<snip>

A sub contracted installer is nothing more than an employee with no benefits. So the next time you guys start complaining about us, or talking trash about us, or just assuming that you are better than us, I encourage you to at least 'try' and look at things from our point of view.

P.S If you are going to ask why I don't just go get another job, my answer to that is, I already know how to do this, and jobs just don't fall out of the sky.

Believe me, I feel your pain. I used to be a subcontractor, and I got fed up with being basically crapped on by the customers, while I paid the price both in time and money. Now I'm a DNS installer, and I still get crapped on by customers, but at least I'm paid for my time. One of my first jobs as a sub several years back, I had some old lady badger me to run her a mirror. She said she was on a fixed income and couldn't afford another box. Being the nice guy I am, I spent an extra 45 minutes and supplies to do her a kindness. Two days later, she calls in and complains that she doesn't like how some of the wire is visible, and the picture isn't as clear as she wanted (A 1978 TV), etc.... wah wah wah. I ended up being charged back for a trouble call. This was Directv, mind you.

 

[Tyralak]

The difference is if you are collecting money "under the table" (I'm sure this isn't the first time you've done this) it is wrong. I pay taxes on every dime I make, why shouldn't you have to as well? Are you better than me? If you don't like your job find another, it isn't as if you are in a highly skilled position where you would be missing out if you changed fields. There are a ton of jobs available. If you don't feel that you are being compensated enough for what you do then find a job that will compensate you fairly. I have zero sympathy for someone that complains but doesn't do anything about it.

Please, dismount your high horse. He never said anything about not paying taxes on anything. You made that accusation, and he never answered you on that matter. You seem to have a fixation with the subject and are trying to put words in his mouth.

 

[lumpkin666]

I don't think you understand my point - you do NOT necessarily have to drive ANY poles to test signals with a dish. You CAN hold the dish (with your bare hands, you know ) on a temporary surface/mount for testing purposes, BEFORE you drive anything in the ground. It' doesn't take but a couple min to tell if it's gonna work or not. As I said, I've done this several times over the years & it's saved me much grief - but again, if you REALLY like doing xtra work...

Thats what I was thinking.. a 40 dollar tripod would have helped a lot here. Then again, what was the point? If you werent going to install eventhough he had clear reception of all the channels he wanted, then why bother at all anyhow.... I suppose you were hoping that it would have not worked, and your point would have been proven though

 

[Jared Twomey]

Kinda sucks when the person isn't there when they are supposed to be doesn't it??

Kinda sucks when the person doesn't have the right equipment doesn't it?

This happens every day. Except 99% of the time it is the installer that doesn't show up and when he does, he doesn't have the right equipment.

You don't like it do you? Welcome to the world of the end user!!!!

i understand that it does happen, but i think 99% is a little bit of a high estimate. And in my experience (been doing this for about 5 years now), its because the customer changes their mind on what they want, or forgot to tell the the csr or whoever that they wanted the dvr, or hd, or whatever.
Personally, if i don't have the equipment on the workorder, i'm not going out. And if the customer wants something that isnt on the workorder, it ain't my fault. It's either their's, or the csr's

 

[Tyralak]

Why are you charging a customer "under the table" ?? Did your company, or Dish, not pay you for the call regardless of whether or not it worked ?? That's like the installers who charge for the cables they took out of the receiver's box or charging for "special" installs. Dish should be charging the customer and then paying the installer or the installer's company. When a customer signs up and gets a "free" install, "free" doesn't mean paying cash directly to the installer. If extra cable is needed or a wall fish, authorize it through Dish, get the proper rate, and have Dish bill for it.

As regards subcontractors, if Dish charged the customer, the sub would do all the work and never see a dime for the extra services. People these days have gotten to the point where they want everything for free. They think "free" installation means that the installer is their bitch for the day.
Dish (and DirecTV) offer free STANDARD installation. Which means a good quality basic install. It doesn't mean you order a system with one 311 and expect the installer to wall fish all 8 rooms in your McMansion so you can drag your 311 to whatever room you happen to be in. (Cheap SOB) It doesn't mean the installer is going to risk his safety mounting the dish 60 feet up on the tip top of your 3rd story chimney because you think it's cool to have a dish that doubles as an aviation hazard. Free installation doesn't mean the installer is going to run you multiple mirrors so you can have acsess to the recording from both your DVRs in all the rooms. Free installation also doesn't mean the installer is going to connect, configure and wall fish speaker wire for your surround sound/home theater system that's still in the boxes. (And yes, these are all real situations I've dealt with, not hyperbole.)
Read the back of a service agreement. free, standard, professional installation is basically placing the dish in a reasonable location, grounding to NEC requirements, and running cables (if neccesary) to every room RECIEVING SERVICE.

!protest

 

[Roadwarrior]

Well I've got a question that seems pretty obvious to me - WHY in the world didn't you test the signal with a dish BEFORE you started all this work??? Granted, I've only been doing satellite since back in the BUD days, but it wouldn't have taken you much time to have verified this was NOT going to work anyway. I've checked many a NLOS like this & it has saved me MUCH work in the long run - it's NOT rocket science.

If you are not doing something like this, seems to me you LIKE doing extra work for free...

Yeah, this was the problem. The guy needed proof. I seriously doubt he would have gone for that, he specifically wanted it in that location, blah blah blah.

Hey, I'm the first one to admit that I go too far for people some times, I really should have just told that guy how it was. But you know how they feel about us anyway. You don't have to search very far on this forum to find a story about a "nightmare install", or "Is the Dish Tech full of it?". I wanted to put all this to rest by actually proving it to the SOB, but he STILL got me. hahaha. I'm a dope.

I should clarify. By "proof", the customer wanted to see the signal and if he could get any channels. This was a Dish mover, so he was an existing customer, this is probably why it took 3 opinions. I can't exactly stand in the middle of the yard with a Dish strapped to my chest and run a check switch and flip through channels.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Guys, I just want to add that as subcontractors, you are running your own business, and you should be taking stuff like this as a write off. I always did. Never had a beef. I never billed a customer for a nlos, I always billed the company I contracted with (that's actually pretty important, as you want it in writing that they are REFUSING to pay you for a job you went on). However, when D* first started their credit checks, we had a lot of deadbeats that resulted in a lot of deinstalls for non activation. Since it was not the install companies fault, and it was 100% the fault of the customer, I billed everyone of the customers for both the install (75/25) and the deinstall (75/25). None of them paid (they were deadbeats after all). When I say deinstall, I mean deinstall. I took back all of MY property. NFW I was leaving it fully wired so they could go buy one from walmart and install it themselves.

Some of our techs have tried that, actually. Even when the customer wouldn't pay, they would still call Dish and complain that the techs tried to charge them, and then our manager would get reprimanded because we are not supposed to charge the customer. So, even if I were to charge my company, I doubt they would even acknowledge receipt of the bill. I doubt my office would even send it in with the paperwork. What exactly do you do in this regard? I am curious. Do you recover 100% of your losses this way?

As far as dead beat customers, I have no way of knowing who renigs on their contract or what. 95% of the time I never see or hear from those people again.(Unless they call me because they STILL don't understand what channel to put TV2 on).

 

[Roadwarrior]

That's a hard way to make a living...

Two questions:
Why a pole mount if you needed to get over a tree line? Was the pole higher than any appropriate mount site on the house?

Why 50lbs of concrete? Was that because of a shallow hole because of the soil conditions?
I had my dishes on 8 foot poles rammed 2 feet into the ground for 10 years now but I don't have hardpan or rocks to contend with.

The trees were right upon the house. There was a hole in the canopy that the customer felt was a good spot for it(threading the needle). I knew that there was no way to get both sats from this location, but I understood where he was coming from. His contract wasn't up yet, and he didn't like cable(although he can get cable)

yes,the soil conditions were horrible. I could not have driven the pole without completely destroying it, so I dug it wide and about 2 feet deep. The concrete was going to be the only stabilizing factor, something else I didn't like.

 

[Roadwarrior]

Kinda sucks when the person isn't there when they are supposed to be doesn't it??

Kinda sucks when the person doesn't have the right equipment doesn't it?

This happens every day. Except 99% of the time it is the installer that doesn't show up and when he does, he doesn't have the right equipment.

You don't like it do you? Welcome to the world of the end user!!!!

Any time I could not make an AM by 12 or a Pm by 5 is because I was overloaded with work, and the jobs were too far apart. Can't speak for all installers, but I promise you that we aren't late because we think it's funny, or because we're lazy. Sometimes it's just not possible.

99% is a ridiculous estimate. Mistakes are made by CSR's, or sales reps taking the order, or the customer just doesnt know what they want or what they ordered.

This is the biggest problem. Dish promises one thing, and the installers have to deliver. You know I don't even get to see the notes on the w/o? Half the time I have no idea whats going on on a service call until I get there or contact the customer. Sometimes we unexpectedly run out of a certain piece of equipment at the warehouse. It's crazy, theres no way to provide personalized service for every customer, there are just too damned many of you, and as you can tell from this thread, morale among the installers tends to wane. I don't have an answer to all of this. There are plenty of crappy installers, this is a fact. What to do? Whatever happened to SBCA? When a company doesn't pay enough, or support their installers, the turnover rate gets out of control, and contracters will hire any guy off the street with a truck(and sometimes they don't even have to have that), and give em a route.

Anybody who used to install C-band or even Primestar can tell you that the money just isn't there anymore, it's almost not worth doing.Why do we get blamed for that? Just be glad that somebody is doing it, because if things keep going the way they are going, there might not be any decent installers in the business in the near future.

 

[Hall]

He never said anything about not paying taxes on anything. You made that accusation, and he never answered you on that matter.

Says something, doesn't it ??

 

[Jared Twomey]

Says something, doesn't it ??

I don't think so, just means he doesnt want to argue the point with you.

You made your original comment to bitch him out for charging the customer "under the table". And as it has been explained a couple times already in this thread, if it was a non-standard installation, as o i dont know, one that has already been determined nlos 3 times, (i would consider that non-standard), then he as a self employed sub contractor has every right to charge the customer.
As far as his taxes go, he never said he didn't keep track of that... you did, and he just never argued you on it. Does this automatically mean you are right? no, could just mean he doesn't feel like arguing with you on it.

 

[DishSubLA]

Ok, I think I've got a pretty good bead on how customers, Dish employees and retail installers feel about Sub Contractors. But I'm going to share a story with all of you anyway. Maybe this will give you some insight into our world.

I had a really crappy route the other day, 5 service calls and a one room dish mover, that was actually just a third opinion on a No line of sight. I drove a total of 230 miles that day, and made around $180. (I buy my own gas, I buy my own everything, for those of you who don't know what a sub contractor is). So I get to this guys house, he is completely treed in, but he thinks all the previous installers were just lazy, so he insists that I try a spot that he picked out where he is certain it will go. It was a pole mount, the ground was nothing but rocks. I knew it was not going to be easy, and I knew he was not going to get a signal. So I told the guy, alright, I'll try it here, but if it doesn't go in, you owe me 20$. I don't work for free, I don't care what any of you uppity f***s think. WE ARE NOT YOUR SERVANTS.(No, I did not curse at the customer, I was very pleasant)

He agreed. So i dug, and picked and cussed at that little spot of ground for over an hour, set the pole(used 50 lbs of concrete), pointed the dish(I could tell by my meter that i wasn't going to get 110 at all, and 119 would be less than impressive). I ran a wild line in through the front door and hooked his reciever up. Surprise surprise! I had a whopping 56 on the 119, and no 110. (this was a 311 reciever). But he doesn't understand how this stuff works, so i let it download a program guide so he could check his favorite channels. Every damned one of the ones he checked came in, no matter what channel i went to, none of them would lose signal! But I couldn't leave it like that, sooner or later he was gonna start losing signal, and start noticing the channels he was missing, and it would be nothing but a headache for my office forever, and it would ultimately cost me more than i made on the job. So I explained this to him, let him talk to one of our FSM's, who also explained to him why I couldn't leave it like that, he said ok, gave me my 20 bucks and I left. The MFer turns around and calls dish and tells them that I charged him 20 bucks to tell him it wouldn't go in, now I have to pay it back.


Long post, I know. The morale of the story is, from this point on, no customer is going to get anything out of me that's not on the work order, and I will not apologize when the job just won't go. Don't argue with me, don't whine, don't expect me to lose money because you don't understand . Live with it, or go back to cable.

Oh, you can charge a customer for a pole mount, or a mirrored line, or burying more than 50 feet of cable, but if they call Dish and bitch about it, you're in trouble.

A sub contracted installer is nothing more than an employee with no benefits. So the next time you guys start complaining about us, or talking trash about us, or just assuming that you are better than us, I encourage you to at least 'try' and look at things from our point of view.

P.S If you are going to ask why I don't just go get another job, my answer to that is, I already know how to do this, and jobs just don't fall out of the sky.

A strange way to get the sympathy of customers who have been burned or have had subcontractors try to burn them. The attitude of bitterness and contempt toward customers in your post only affirms to them the low opinions they may have towards subcontractors.

It is sad to hear such tragedy in your post regarding your position in life. One can understand your "Road Warrior" anger on having been dealt such poor cards in the game of life. Simply put, you're not happy with your job, and no long post in the world is ever gonna change that, certainly not going to change the minds of the stubborn customers you put down. Yours could easily be a rant of someone working at a fast-food joint or similar job where the employee works hard but feels unjustly compensated for toiling in poor working conditions having to deal with mean bosses, while serving demanding and ignorant customers. One can imagine the sense of satisfaction that employee may feel by adding his "secret sauce" to the food of those poor dummy customers.

The good news is that this is not Socialist France. This is the USA: go to school, learn a new trade or even get a degree, you will find a job that will pay more and give you greater satisfaction, and you will find the bitterness and anger melt away. And no, it is NOT EASY to work and go to school. It is NEVER EASY. But until you do the things that really need to be done to change your life instead of the futile task of changing other people for whom you have contempt, your job options and earning power will always remain limited.

 

[webbydude]

A strange way to get the sympathy of customers who have been burned or have had subcontractors try to burn them. The attitude of bitterness and contempt toward customers in your post only affirms to them the low opinions they may have towards subcontractors.

It is sad to hear such tragedy in your post regarding your position in life. One can understand your "Road Warrior" anger on having been dealt such poor cards in the game of life. Simply put, you're not happy with your job, and no long post in the world is ever gonna change that, certainly not going to change the minds of the stubborn customers you put down. Yours could easily be a rant of someone working at a fast-food joint or similar job where the employee works hard but feels unjustly compensated for toiling in poor working conditions having to deal with mean bosses, while serving demanding and ignorant customers. One can imagine the sense of satisfaction that employee may feel by adding his "secret sauce" to the food of those poor dummy customers.

The good news is that this is not Socialist France. This is the USA: go to school, learn a new trade or even get a degree, you will find a job that will pay more and give you greater satisfaction, and you will find the bitterness and anger melt away. And no, it is NOT EASY to work and go to school. It is NEVER EASY. But until you do the things that really need to be done to change your life instead of the futile task of changing other people for whom you have contempt, your job options and earning power will always remain limited.

At the risk of sounding incredibly naive, but where in the original post does it sound like RR is unhappy with his job? At least to me, he's just very bitter with (a) the two-faced nature of his customer and (b) to a lesser degree, his own ignorance/over-trust of the customer and that particular situation he was faced.

And for the record, the whole "need to go back to school and get a REAL job" has a bit too much condensation and holier-than-thou attitude to me.

 

[Roadwarrior]

A strange way to get the sympathy of customers who have been burned or have had subcontractors try to burn them. The attitude of bitterness and contempt toward customers in your post only affirms to them the low opinions they may have towards subcontractors.

It is sad to hear such tragedy in your post regarding your position in life. One can understand your "Road Warrior" anger on having been dealt such poor cards in the game of life. Simply put, you're not happy with your job, and no long post in the world is ever gonna change that, certainly not going to change the minds of the stubborn customers you put down. Yours could easily be a rant of someone working at a fast-food joint or similar job where the employee works hard but feels unjustly compensated for toiling in poor working conditions having to deal with mean bosses, while serving demanding and ignorant customers. One can imagine the sense of satisfaction that employee may feel by adding his "secret sauce" to the food of those poor dummy customers.

The good news is that this is not Socialist France. This is the USA: go to school, learn a new trade or even get a degree, you will find a job that will pay more and give you greater satisfaction, and you will find the bitterness and anger melt away. And no, it is NOT EASY to work and go to school. It is NEVER EASY. But until you do the things that really need to be done to change your life instead of the futile task of changing other people for whom you have contempt, your job options and earning power will always remain limited.

One thing I'll agree with you on, I have developed an unhealthy contempt for 'some' types of customers. These are almost always the rich ones who have never really spent much time getting their hands dirty. They don't understand what it takes, all they know is they are important and I had better treat them that way. This is why I would never make it in retail.

I like the work. It's interesting and I've gotten pretty good at it. As for going back to school, that is for the future. Right now I am putting my fiance' through school. And on the rant: why can't I put the customers down, since so many of them put us down on here regularly? The difference here is, I CAN look at both angles, since I am a Dish Customer and Installer. Few of them can see my side, and quite frankly, don't care. Why should they?

The secret sauce bit was good. I, however, don't intentionally do bad installs because of a prick customer. They will get just as much attention as anyone else. They just have to deal with ear ringing later. Thats it.