123w and 129w with 1 Meter Primestar

[linuxman]

Wow, those pictures really are worth 1,000 words, aren't they?
I especially like the horizontal bar over the Primestar LNB mounting bolts!
That's quite inspired!

Hey Anole!

Yes, those pictures opened up a whole new ball game of thinking for me. I now have thoughts of putting up a P* 84e with one LNBf on AMC3 and the other on G25. After all they are only about 10 degrees apart, and relatively the same for me as far as elevation in the sky. What that amounts to is less dishes, and more birds.

Yea, you know how long a screw to buy.

Yes I do, and have already purchased the 4" adjustable holder from Mike.

He says in one paragraph that on one setup he had that they were able to get 30 degrees on either side from center with LNBf like that. He told me on the phone, that some of the SQ was pretty low on the ends, but they got it to lock in.

I am now thinking of maybe a bigger offset dish. (4 foot to 6 foot) and put a bar on it like Mikes 90CM pictured. I spotted a 4 foot prime focus solid the other day, and I know where a 6' solid offset dish is, so maybe I can bag one or both of those.

If the experimental numbers go well, it would help in placing other LNBFs on the bar.

Thanks again,

Fred

 

[gabshere]

yeah i love those pictures , was planning to do a couple of test dishes myself to see if multifeeds would work for me. would like to feed several dual lnb's to a 3X4 to several receivers = no motors + instant channel changes. Some people don't like waiting on the motor. lol

 

[Wescopc]

I tried a 120 cm dish and found that it had a tighter focus than my 90cm dish. The 120 cm didn't supply as good signal of strength (focus) to the off center LNBF's as the 90cm did. So goes the fun of this hobby.
Bob

 

[linuxman]

I hear you wescopc,

You think something bigger might be better, but it all depends on the dish I would say. One may be flatter with more gain than another.

BTW for all you having trouble getting G10, I spent over 2 hours today trying to line up G10 on the Primestar 1M dish. I am not a pro by any means, but have set up several dishes on several different satellites. Everyone makes mistakes now and then.

I worked the procedure I always use, and I know I passed it at least half a dozen times, but never saw it once. I was using 11805 H as the TP for finding, and after about 4 passes, I began to think that maybe the LNB was not any good. I switched to 11718 V and finally got a signal, but it was at 95% SQ which I thought, oh my gosh!! If this dish is that strong, I really have something here, but none of the other TP's showed up that are supposed to be on G10, so I knew I wasn't in the right place. Did a blind scan, and came up wih one channel, AAD. I was pretty sure I was on G13, but at least I now knew the LNB worked.

I was just getting ready to pull the feed cover off and see if I hooked up the cables backwards, when I looked down and saw the mistake I had made when I put the dish on the mount. It is in the picture above plain as day. I had set the skew at -33.4 instead of +33.4. Moved it to the right spot, and had G10 less than 2 minutes later.

I wrote all that to caution those of you who still can't get G10, look over everything, and find your mistake. If the skew is not set at least close, you might pass over the satellite, and never see a thing. Check connections, cables, settings in the receiver, everything.

If you have tried slowly and methodically to get it and can't see it, something is wrong. Find out what, and fix it.

Hopefully White Springs won't be as hard when the parts arrive.

Fred

 

[RVD420]

I hear you wescopc,

You think something bigger might be better, but it all depends on the dish I would say. One may be flatter with more gain than another.

BTW for all you having trouble getting G10, I spent over 2 hours today trying to line up G10 on the Primestar 1M dish. I am not a pro by any means, but have set up several dishes on several different satellites. Everyone makes mistakes now and then.

I worked the procedure I always use, and I know I passed it at least half a dozen times, but never saw it once. I was using 11805 H as the TP for finding, and after about 4 passes, I began to think that maybe the LNB was not any good. I switched to 11718 V and finally got a signal, but it was at 95% SQ which I thought, oh my gosh!! If this dish is that strong, I really have something here, but none of the other TP's showed up that are supposed to be on G10, so I knew I wasn't in the right place. Did a blind scan, and came up wih one channel, AAD. I was pretty sure I was on G13, but at least I now knew the LNB worked.

I was just getting ready to pull the feed cover off and see if I hooked up the cables backwards, when I looked down and saw the mistake I had made when I put the dish on the mount. It is in the picture above plain as day. I had set the skew at -33.4 instead of +33.4. Moved it to the right spot, and had G10 less than 2 minutes later.

I wrote all that to caution those of you who still can't get G10, look over everything, and find your mistake. If the skew is not set at least close, you might pass over the satellite, and never see a thing. Check connections, cables, settings in the receiver, everything.

If you have tried slowly and methodically to get it and can't see it, something is wrong. Find out what, and fix it.

Hopefully White Springs won't be as hard when the parts arrive.

Fred

Was AAD scrambled?

Last time I checked it was, but you never know when a channel will be ITC

 

[linuxman]

It scanned in as AAD, but it had oriental writing on the picture when I watched it. It was not scrambled.

Fred

 

[BKP]

They were tight, but I screwed them out ok with a big screwdriver. I am going to try and get a socket to fit them though. I might have to use them to put some sort of bracket on. But I loosened them up to set the skew for G10.

Fred

That's good, I just wondered because I've read that the threads strip fairly easy..

Yeah, those pictures on Mike's website is what ready peeked my interest in FTA.. If I was still the old me I'd be messin' with this all the time, Hahaha..

I'll be looking forward to your new bracket photos..


Later, Brent

 

[linuxman]

I spent about 5 hours on the roof today trying to get the brackets and an LNBF attached to the Primestar 1M for G27 (White Springs)

I first had to modify the clamps that I bought from Home Depot to fit onto the junction box bolts. They fit OK in the black channel, but were to deep towards the center to go down flat, so had to grind off one side on each with the Dremel. Finally got that part done, and slide the conduit piece in, but couldn't get it tight, so had to get some double-sided tape to put between the conduit and clamp.

Finally got all that squared away, and the package from Mike Kohl arrived. Grabbed one of his brackets you will see in one of the pictures laying on the roof. Tried both brackets. One for the neck, and one big enough to put around the whole LNB body.

Got a very faint signal by using the neck. The feed-horn was too far back. Switched to the other bracket and moved the feed-horn up even with the center one.

I couldn't get more than 15% SQ with the bracket attached, even at its lowest setting. Took the bracket off, and held the LNB on the bar with my hand, and was able to finally get 30% SQ.

That was not acceptable to me, and I didn't have a way to attach it if it was.

Anole, I think your numbers are very close. I don't think this setup will work on this dish. I need the LNB to be a bit closer to center, and lower than what I could get it. The clamp holding the bar prevents me from getting closer, and the bar prevents me from going lower. Even if I could get lower the side support arm will probably be in the way.

I will probably just put up an extra dish for White Springs, and try this experiment on IA5 and AMC3 using an 84e.

Mike told me in advance that it probably wouldn't work with this dish because of the side support arm issue and the height of the junction block.

Here are the pics of where I left it.





I came down for lunch about 1:30, then went back up and attached a DBS LNBf to the Birdview. I still have a coax to put a connector on for that, but it started raining. The rain has about quit now, and I am going to finish that little task tonight.

So that's the story for now, unless some of you have some suggestions.

Fred

 

[Anole]

few thoughts

1. can you strap/clamp an LNB to the side support arm?
2. hate to suggest this, but you might skew the entire dish to get LNB clearance.
3. how far from our calculations did you find the hot spot for the new LNB?
4. yea, getting the LNB closer isn't a big surprise.
5. if all else fails, I got a -good- signal from Whitesprings on a 20" dish.
6. and last but not least, after test-viewing Whitesprings for a week, I think I'll skip it.

 

[linuxman]

1. can you strap/clamp an LNB to the side support arm?

Don't think so. The angle on the support arm is too severe for that.

2. hate to suggest this, but you might skew the entire dish to get LNB clearance.

Would be very difficult to do as I don't have a skewable mount.

3. how far from our calculations did you find the hot spot for the new LNB?

That was the problem. I couldn't get close enough to match the calculations. I was about an inch too high, and a half inch too far away.

4. yea, getting the LNB closer isn't a big surprise.
5. if all else fails, I got a -good- signal from Whitesprings. on a 20" dish.

I have one of those dishes in the warehouse and a Hughes LNBF to fit it. But I have two more 84e's too. Might use the DirecPC dish for White Springs though and save an 84e for a tougher satellite.

6. and last but not least, after test-viewing Whitesprings for a week, I think I'll skip it.

I guess that all depends on ones own preferences. I like some of the old movies they play on there. I haven't seen some of the cartoons they show on there since I was a little kid.

That's why I am trying to make it easy to check. Just click on the channel and see what is playing. No wait for the dish to move.

I might take the bar off, and try the Iceberg method tomorrow with just a piece of wood between and a hose clamp. It works well with a DBS LNBF. I'll have to see what the weather does. Supposed to storm tomorrow and Sunday.

I don't like giving up, but dang it was hot up there today. Wasn't so bad this morning, but this afternoon, it got down right warm.

Thanks for the suggestions,

Fred

 

[linuxman]

Well took another stab at fixing a second LNBF to the P* 1M dish.

Took the bar assembly off, and tried to free-hand adjust the LNBF. Saw 45% SQ once or twice. Still pretty low, but could be lived with.

The sweet spot is actually higher than what we had thought Anole, and could be gotten with the bar and brackets if there was a way to fine adjust the up and down. I might drill out the hole on the bracket adjuster so the nuts can do the adjusting and try it again if we get a nice cool day that will last longer than a couple of hours.

I still think the 84e might be better suited for trying to get more than one satellite on a single dish.

Fred

 

[linuxman]

I moved the 1M P* to another mount and it is now pointed at Hispasat 30W.

I took a couple of pictures just to show you how close to the roof the LNB cover was when finally aimed at 12 degrees elevation.



I put an 84e on the mount I am using for G10 just to see if I could manage to get G27 (White Springs) on a second LNB with that dish.

Unfortunately I was unable to get anything better than a 30% SQ using that dish either. I will say that the 84e is much better suited for multiple LNBs on a bar.

Has the SQ at White Springs been unusually low lately?

I normally get it near 90 SQ most of the time. The reason I ask, is that the 12109 H TP was at 75%, and the 11880 V TP was at 60%. I am showing WS on my family setup right now on a fixed 75e at about 55% SQ today which is normally at 75%.

That might account for my not being able to get a better signal. I could live with a solid 45% SQ as long as it didn't fluctuate. If fluctuating is a pattern, that would be a better reason for a separate dish for WS.

Maybe it is just me, but is there a huge compromise on signal strentgh when using multi LNBFs on a single dish?

Seems to work fine for a KU LNB plus a DBS LNB, but then DBS birds have a super signal.

Is there that much of a sacrifice in signal strength with a T-90?

Just an FYI Anole. Your numbers seem to be very close for the best signal.

Let me know your thoughts!!

Fred

 

[Anole]

Couple of members have indicated less than perfect performance using many LNBs.
Mike Kohl on his web site says the signals fall off considerably for LNBs far off-center.
Iceberg has said something similar.
Wescopc has commented that he had more loss off-center with a 1.2m than a 90 cm dish.

Those who've posted their success with the T-90 seem to be satisfied with it.

Mostly, a dish is designed to focus to a point.
Are T-90's designed to focus to a line?
Perhaps someone has a good explanation.

I've been digesting everything printed on this forum for some time, and I haven't found the magic formula that says why some dishes are better for off-center use than others.
Is it that the really sharp (accurate) dishes suck , and the average dishes are better off-axis?

Glad to hear the calculations are pretty close for your 2nd LNB.
I take no credit for MJflash's work.
I was just the cheer-leader to get you to try it.
And the more we test things like this, the more confident we become that we've got it right.
...and it finally explains some experimental data I'd compiled years ago, aiming at 82/91, after becoming familiar with 110/119

Love the pix of the Primestar with its nose in the dirt.
I take it there's not much of a lip around the edge of the building to shoot over?

 

[linuxman]

Love the pix of the Primestar with its nose in the dirt.
I take it there's not much of a lip around the edge of the building to shoot over?

There is no lip on the East side and only about 4" on the West.

I was going to shoot a picture of the hole I am aiming through to get Hispasat.

The Birdview now sits where this fixed dish used to set because that is the North sweet spot on the building. So now this dish is about 20 feet West of the Birdview and a little South, so I am shooting over the Birdview and North of my neighbors tallest tree, and just over the tallest branch of my neighbors next tallest tree with a power line pole just North of that.

I am getting a consistent solid 45% with jumps to 55% on the weakest TP on that bird, and 90% on the strongest. Depends on if the wind blows hard out of the South. Then the tall tree keeps it to 45%.

Glad to hear the calculations are pretty close for your 2nd LNB.
I take no credit for MJflash's work.
I was just the cheer-leader to get you to try it.
And the more we test things like this, the more confident we become that we've got it right.

I am glad I tried it, but it would be nice of one of the mathematical gurus who is also a programmer would put it into an online calculator.

I have also had some problems getting the Birdview to work well with a DBS LNBF off to the side of the scaler ring and get the best signal. The Birdview is a very flat dish with a .42 F/D ratio. I made another adjustment today, and got most of the DBS sats in the 75% bracket. Course I have the LNBF outside the scaler ring. It probably needs to be closer to the center, but I ain't drilling no hole in that scaler ring. It is not easily replaced.

On the other hand, the Pinnacle is a very deep dish with an F/D ratio of .28, and the DBS LNBF on that one pegs all the DBS satellites. I can't figure that one out either.

So to all those who want to try this experiment, make sure what you are aiming at has strong TPs on both birds, and be willing to SQ that is lower than you are used to.

Thanks again,

Fred

 

[Keith Brannen]

I put an 84e on the mount I am using for G10 just to see if I could manage to get G27 (White Springs) on a second LNB with that dish.

Unfortunately I was unable to get anything better than a 30% SQ using that dish either. I will say that the 84e is much better suited for multiple LNBs on a bar.

Has the SQ at White Springs been unusually low lately?

I normally get it near 90 SQ most of the time. The reason I ask, is that the 12109 H TP was at 75%, and the 11880 V TP was at 60%. I am showing WS on my family setup right now on a fixed 75e at about 55% SQ today which is normally at 75%.

That might account for my not being able to get a better signal. I could live with a solid 45% SQ as long as it didn't fluctuate. If fluctuating is a pattern, that would be a better reason for a separate dish for WS.

Maybe it is just me, but is there a huge compromise on signal strentgh when using multi LNBFs on a single dish?

Obviously (from my signature below) I have had very good success with multiple LNBs on my dishes (all 80cm).

Normally, I get White Springs TV in the 70-75% range (tonight it was hovering around 60 under overcast skies) which is higher than I get either of the Equity transponders on G10R!

The compromise on signal quality is usually small (10-15%) if the satellite you are trying to get is close to your centre (8 degrees or under). Anything over that (which in my case usually equates to over 3 1/2 inches off centre at the top and middle of the arc) signal loss increases substantially, and exponentially.

A good example of that (and I see you have been thinking of doing the same) was when I had one LNB on AMC3 and one on G25. G25 was at the centre and AMC3 was about 4 1/2 inches off centre. By moving G25 to 1 7/8 inches off centre (dish elevation remained at G25, dish moved horizontally towards AMC3) I had a decrease in signal quality of 10-15%, yet AMC3 which was now only 2 5/8 inches off centre increased in strength by 20% and more.

There are a few exceptions to that, DBS satellites (GOLTV on Echostar 8, which is 5 inches off centre, I get at around 90%), and, in my case, AMC6 (which is so strong it bleeds over substantially when I have the LNB at SBS6). When I have the LNB pointed at AMC6 it is also 5 inches off centre, but I get signal quality almost as good as I get from AMC5 which is only 1 7/8 off centre!

G26 which is 4 3/8 inches off centre is a bit too far off centre and there is significant signal loss, the horizontal is considerably weaker than the vertical, but most vertical are in the 30-45% range (couple hit 60%).

For those who don't have a Pansat 3500SD, any signal over 30% is great, under that and you might get pixelation or loss of signal, though most can survive into the mid 20s. I remember at one time White Springs TV was fine until it dropped below 15%!

 

[linuxman]

Thanks Keith!!

That gives me some hope that I can maybe still pull this off.

I have another 75e with no LNBF on it at the moment for the center, so I am thinking of trying the compromise by pointing it at somewhere between 123 and 129 maybe at 125 for aiming purposes, and see what it will do. The 75e is equivalent to a 75cm dish.

I think part of my problem is that the only LNBFs I have are the Primestar LNBFs and a couple of Hughes LNBFs with the same kind of feed-horn as the P*'s. Made for the eliptical dishes.

I may need to go to a rounder type LNBF with a newer style neck etc. to make this work.

If you have some pictures of your setup, I would love to see them. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

I appreciate the encouragement and it is good to know that it is achievable with the right components.

I may have to start looking for a smaller round dish. Yours are 80cm. That's a 31.5" dish. Hmmmm!!!

Thanks for replying and your help!

Fred

 

[linuxman]

Just thought about asking!

What are some really inexpensive (even cheap) modern day KU LNBFs that can be purchased just for this experiment?

Thanks,

Fred

 

[Keith Brannen]

I think part of my problem is that the only LNBFs I have are the Primestar LNBFs and a couple of Hughes LNBFs with the same kind of feed-horn as the P*'s. Made for the eliptical dishes.

I may need to go to a rounder type LNBF with a newer style neck etc. to make this work.

If you have some pictures of your setup, I would love to see them. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Judging by your photos of the Primestar LNB (and if the Hughes is a similar style), then I'd say you definitely would have to go to the newer style LNBs to get them close enough together without interfering with each other (most of my LNBs have been in the $17 - $25 range (Canadian) and I have an assortment of Fortec Star, GT Sat, Digiwave, Ku Satellite, & Captive Works LNBs).

Here are six thousand words!

First photo is: ECHO7 (119), G10R (123), G27 (129)
Second photo is a side view.

Third photo is: AMC6 (72) (when moved to SBS6 it is closer to AMC5), AMC5 (79), AMC3 (87), G26 (93)
Fourth photo is a side view.

Fifth photo is: G11 (91), G25 (97), AMC1 (103), ECHO8 (110)
Sixth photo is a side view.

 

[linuxman]

Here are six thousand words!

Thank you so much for the pictures!!

They are indeed worth more than 6000 words. I will be studying them over and over. You have given me even more ideas about how to hang them together.

I have 1 newer style LNBF on the way courtesy of Anole, and I wlll be looking for another here shortly.

I will make this work eventually!!!

Thanks again!!

Fred

 

[Keith Brannen]

Thank you so much for the pictures!!

They are indeed worth more than 6000 words. I will be studying them over and over. You have given me even more ideas about how to hang them together.

I have 1 newer style LNBF on the way courtesy of Anole, and I wlll be looking for another here shortly.

I will make this work eventually!!!

Thanks again!!

Fred

You're welcome. The newer style LNB, plus the obsession that is included in this addiction we call a "hobby", I am positive you will make it work!