Why you will need more space on those HD movie DVDs!

[JoeSp]

There seems to be a %ishing contest about the size of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs. Everyone now knows that Blu-Ray is going to need more than 25GB to compete with HD-DVD dual layer 30GB dvds but why?

First, I really believe there has been some awful authoring of Blu-Ray movies that have recently been released. The picture quality does not compete with HD-DVD picture quality. But I believe that both the bad HD conversions and the single layer Blu-Ray disc problems will be solved and we will see comparitive quality products.

Now the real reason for this post. HD SOUND! That's right, new lossless audio codecs that will deliver much higher quality sound then you currently can get. Think Super-Audio CD or DVD-Audio and then think better!

Currently, with dual layer HD-DVD's at 30GB and Blu-Ray at 25GB (single layer for now) you will not be able to get any lossless audio codec on the disc. There is not enough room period. However, and here is where I think Blu-Ray dual layers will shine (providing they stop making crappy video conversions) and why HD-DVD is desperately trying to convince everyone that 3-layer HD-DVDs are around the corner -- LOSSLESS AUDIO CODECS with your HD picture!!

If every review of HD-DVD players and movies meations the absence of lossless audio (Dolby DigitalHD and HD-DTS) formats has anyone question that? Simple answer is that there is not enough room on a 30GB DVD! In fact, even with a dual layer 50GB Blu-Ray there might only be enough room for one of the new lossless audio formats!!

This is the reason for HD-DVD to be touting a 3-layer 45GB DVD now before Blu-Ray gets their 2-layer 50GB DVD out the door. Because once that happens (providing better video conversions) BluRay will be able to offer lossless audio and HD-DVD camp will not without a 3-layer DVD. This could also be the reason Sony is geting to work on a 4-layer Blu-Ray disc? Without a 3 layer HD-DVD disc will HD-DVD movies never be able to provide lossless HD audio? Might we start seeing Hd movies on two discs instead of one in order to provide HD audio making us have to change out the discs in the middle of the movie? I hope not!

More reason to wait for these formats to start maturing. A winner now -- please don't make me laugh! This mess will not clear out for at least two years if ever!! By then both formats will probably be well entrenced and supported. Yes I know about MPEG 4 and V1C compression. But we really haven't seen any real product in the stores using these yet so until then we must wait to declare a winner -- heck there probably will not even be one. Competition is always a plus for the consumer! :tux:

 

[vurbano]

The majority of HDTV owners could care less. DD+ over 5.1 analog is about the best quality Ive heard through my speakers.

 

[JoeSp]

The majority of HDTV owners could care less. DD+ over 5.1 analog is about the best quality Ive heard through my speakers.

Vurbano, What if you could get the same sound you get at the theater from your speakers? I heard the same talk about the differance between CD and DVD-Audio and Super Audio. I think that when the new lossless audio codecs start showing up and you can hear what they do for your system you will change your tune.

 

[Ilya]

Everyone now knows that Blu-Ray is going to need more than 25GB to compete with HD-DVD dual layer 30GB dvds but why?

Because they are trying to fit this old and inefficient MPEG-2 encoding, uncompressed PCM audio and DVD extras on a single-layer 25-GB disc and it doesn't seem to fit.

you will not be able to get any lossless audio codec on the disc. There is not enough room period.

This is simply not true! There are HD DVD's with lossless audio on them already. For example, one of the first HD DVD titles, The Phantom of the Opera, has lossless (Dolby TrueHD) sound in addition to lossy Dolby Digital Plus. So, they had no problem fitting a full-length movie (2 hours and 21 minutes) and three versions of multi-channel audio (including lossless) on a single 30 GB disc! They even had space left to put some extras. And the picture looks fantastic! One of my favorites!

Yes I know about MPEG 4 and V1C compression. But we really haven't seen any real product in the stores using these yet

What are you talking about? All HD DVDs (with just a few exceptions) use VC1 compression.

The bottom line is: if you use efficient codecs, like VC1 for video, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD for audio, 30GB is enough!

 

[teamerickson]

If every review of HD-DVD players and movies meations the absence of lossless audio (Dolby DigitalHD and HD-DTS) formats has anyone question that? Simple answer is that there is not enough room on a 30GB DVD! In fact, even with a dual layer 50GB Blu-Ray there might only be enough room for one of the new lossless audio formats!!

So you are under the impresion that the audio will take more space than the video. I doubt that.

 

[Ilya]

Competition is always a plus for the consumer! :tux:

This is one statement I might agree with (though it probably deserves a separate thread )
Sure, I don't like format wars. Sure, I wish there was one great format that everyone agreed on.
But imagine for a second that there were no HD DVDs. We would be reading rave reviews about how Blu-ray picture is great compared to DVD!
With no other HD disc format to compare with we would probably accept these first Blu-ray titles the way they are, believing that this is as good as it gets! A scary thought!

The good news for us, consumers, is that Toshiba has managed to establish a reference point in both picture quality and price. No matter which format wins the War now, the bar has been set. At least now we know what to expect and what to demand!

 

[vurbano]

Vurbano, What if you could get the same sound you get at the theater from your speakers? I heard the same talk about the differance between CD and DVD-Audio and Super Audio. I think that when the new lossless audio codecs start showing up and you can hear what they do for your system you will change your tune.

HD DVD already has them

 

[T2k]

Joe,

for the umpteenth time... why don't you ask first?

Let's see: what could be those crazy audio codec you're talking about and how it will come out from these devices?
Answer: most likely TrueHD Lossless and DTS-HD Lossless and in no way unless mfrs will implement onboard decoders with full DA analog 7.1 outputs.

1. Audio via Toslink or S/PDIF: it's bandwidth limited to two channel uncompressed PCM 24/96kHz (which enough for various compressed multichannel sound like DD, DTS etc).

2. Audio via HDMI: although from v1.3 it is capable to pass lossless compressed multichannel formats, it's still a paperware standard thus for at least a year there won't be any units to decode them, let alone the fact that both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD list Lossless HD multichannel codecs as optional and IIRC none of them has enough bandwidth for it in a full bitrate video + full bitrate audio case...

3. Audio via analog: no unit supports outputting lossless HD multichannel via analog and I bet there won't be ever or at least for many years to come.

 

[CochiseGuy]

3. Audio via analog: no unit supports outputting lossless HD multichannel via analog and I bet there won't be ever or at least for many years to come.

I'm no audio expert, but isn't lossless HD multichannel likely to never be output over analog? No copy protection, the studios would be giving away the keys to their highest digital audio soundtracks.

I've always assumed lossless HD audio will require HDMI for HDCP copy protection, just like the video?

 

[T2k]

I'm no audio expert, but isn't lossless HD multichannel likely to never be output over analog? No copy protection, the studios would be giving away the keys to their highest digital audio soundtracks.

I've always assumed lossless HD audio will require HDMI for HDCP copy protection, just like the video?

It's entirely possible - maybe I just haven't heard about it.