Why have it if Quality is bad :no

[squicken]

To my eyes, HDNews is on par with HDNet in terms of PQ.
Besides, how long can you guys be WOWed by HDTV? By definition, the WOW factor has an element of surprise. Maybe it is time to start just watching good programming...

That's exactly what's happened to me. I read posts all the time that guys can no longer watch non-HD b/c their spoiled by the PQ. They say they'll sit through a less interesting documentary than watch SD. I was like that the first month or so. But it wears off.

Now I watch for content. That's why I don't really care if we get HDNET or not, b/c they don't have good content. I really want InHD b/c they have more HD sports (real sports at the highest level) than even ESPN! I want ESPN and TNT to increase their HD output much more than I want Voom to add WealthTV. When given the choice between SD and HD "Sopranos" or basketball, then obviously I want HD. But I'm going to watch "Deep Space 9" on SpikeTV before I watch "Weird Ceremonial Dances of the Balinese" on Gallery. This is also why some of us are bitching more about Voom; Their weak in content compared to other providers.

I always equate this to video games. I'll take pedestrian graphics and great game-play over great graphics and crap game-play all the time. Having both great graphics and game-play is optimal, but that's not the present reality.

 

[DarrellP]

That's why I don't really care if we get HDNET or not, b/c they don't have good content.

In YOUR Opinion. I love HDNET, they have many, many shows that I like. I watch more HDNET than Voom combined.

I watch a few SD shows on my 27" TV, but when I have my pj fired up, SD does not get displayed there, it just doesn't look good enough to justify viewing, so why waste the precious few hours that pj bulbs have on a crappy looking SD picture?

I still prefer PQ over content, that's why I dropped Dish SD, it sucked!

 

[gutter]

I have never had D" or E". Just a STB that gave me the big wow factor on local digitial. The voom box does not have it even on that. I think the problem is in the box as well. When component looks better than DVI something is very wrong with the box. From what I have read, the box is to be updated with new firmware and new software. I hope part of the solution is to improve the picture quality. I know my Sammy DLP deliverers Wow if it is fed it. It ain't getting it yet but I will hold with Voom and see what happens. After all, I have just been a sub for one week. I want them to succeed. I would hope they would at least admit that it is different and that they are working on it. However I have to say that, for some reason, the barker channels seem to have the Wow .

 

[squicken]

In YOUR Opinion. I love HDNET, they have many, many shows that I like. I watch more HDNET than Voom combined.

I watch a few SD shows on my 27" TV, but when I have my pj fired up, SD does not get displayed there, it just doesn't look good enough to justify viewing, so why waste the precious few hours that pj bulbs have on a crappy looking SD picture?

I still prefer PQ over content, that's why I dropped Dish SD, it sucked!

I didn't mean to speak as the authority on HDNET's content. It was, of course, just one man's opinion. It's not like I'd kick HDNET out of bed if I woke up next to her one morning. But you say you like HDNET more than all of Voom combined? Doesn't that mean you're dissatisfied with Voom's content also? I just want Voom to have better content, both of the SD and HD varieties.

 

[DarrellP]

Yep! So far the content on Voom has been extremely lacking. About the only channels I tune in are: MonstersHD, RAVEHD, RUSHHD and when I've had 2 beers too many: MOOVHD. I haven't seen a movie yet that I have been compelled to spend 1 1/2 hours to watch. I watch all the DiscoveryHD, ESPNHD and TNTHD from Dish. I find it odd that the DVI from Voom does not exceed the PQ of Component from Dish.

 

[Vreesar]

Ok, this may not be the correct forum for this but it seems a lot of people are confused and don't understand this so here you go.

In and of itself DVI and Component cables are NOT better or worse. Now, having said that. In most cases a DVI connections from a satellite should be better but not always. Here is the reason.

Information on todays downlink satellites is sent by digital streams and not analog. The STB then has to convert the digital to analog to put it on the component cable, then your TV (if its Plasma, LCD, etc) converts that analog signal back to digital. Dependent on the components in your STB and TV there could be a loss of data from those conversions. Which then leads to a loss in picture quality.

With a DVI connection the STB and TV does NOT have to convert from digital to analog because the DVI cable is a digital connection.

So....if your STB/TV is VERY good at the conversion from analog to digital and there is no interference that may cause problems on the component you very likely won't see a difference in picture quality.

The same works the other way, if your CRT is not good at converting a DVI signal to analog then picture quality will not be as good as say component.

 

[Sean Mota]

Sean, that is not true. I have the wow factor EVEN on ESPNHD on 811. I do agree that TNTHD will give you more wow but on Dish 811 - not on Voom.

Then all members here and AVS must have defective equipment (including me) because I do not know what WOW factor you are watching on ESPN-HD. Did you see baseball on HDnet ever or INHD -- that's WOW factor.

Again, last night Basketball game on V* and E* I watched and saw no difference between the two.

 

[Sean Mota]

It all seems to amaze me that you all can talk about PQ and everything that is talked about is always subjective. If you want to prove your case, give me some data and tell me that VOOM is using less bitrates (mbps) than E* or D*. Last time I checked they were using between 12mbps & 15mbps for their HD channels. Only HDnet uses 16mbps on E*. So give me some data and I'll believe you.

 

[DarrellP]

Sean, I just trust my eyes, I know what I am seeing and Voom is not as crisp or clear as Dish is. Maybe I'm just spoiled by HDNET? Even the ball games on TNTHD there is a definite difference. I never tried ESPNHD on V* during the games since I know E* will put out a great picture. On a 110" screen, the difference is easily discernible. Now on my 27" TV, I see no difference, but that is only 480i.

 

[Sean Mota]

Darrellp,

I watched most of the game last night on ESPN-HD and except for one problem that occur in the game, the PQ was flawless. I give you the one on TNT-HD but not as much as to say that it is SD quality of Crappy picture as (some other post suggested). That's not correct. Let's put everything into perspective here and let not trash V* picture to the point that is consider the same as SD. It is not. I was watching on my 42" DLP and my 60" LCD.

 

[Scubasoul]

It all seems to amaze me that you all can talk about PQ and everything that is talked about is always subjective. If you want to prove your case, give me some data and tell me that VOOM is using less bitrates (mbps) than E* or D*. Last time I checked they were using between 12mbps & 15mbps for their HD channels. Only HDnet uses 16mbps on E*. So give me some data and I'll believe you.

I believe what I see, no "data" necessary.

As far as I'm concerned, compared to D* the PQ leaves a lot to be desired, especially DHDT. This has been stated by others here as well. That's also true for OTA, so my guess is that the receiver has something to do with it. I really hope the next software update will address this issue. Maybe the fps issue has something to do with it, well one can hope.

You are right, it's all subjective of course, and we can debate until hell freezes over. At the end of the day if one is happy with the PQ, great, no convincing required. If not, also no convincing required, and one has to look for other options, or stop complaining and live with what is offered.

I will wait for the next software update and if PQ doesn't improve I'm out.

 

[Conjuror]

Sean,
I don't want to discuss here what should be a wow factor and what not. The fact is, a lot of people here complain about HDPQ on Voom. I would let any Voom's technician to come in my house and evaluate PQ on both Dish and Voom.
I would say that at least 40-50% of us on this forum will say that Voom's HD does not have the wow factor on most (if not all) of HD channels it supplies, including OTA. Therefore, it would much more useful to address this problem and not to say that there is no difference.
I know that you are not the one who can change situation over night but somehow I feel that you have some connections with Voom tech folks. If not, I'm sure that someone from Voom who reads these posts sometime could put this issue on the Voom's top CEO table. I'm afraid if they don't do it soon enough they just may push many current and future Voom's customers away.

 

[DarrellP]

Sean, I am not trashing V* PQ at all, I think V* has "good" PQ, just not "great" PQ like Dish. Due to my PQ experience with TNTHD on V*, I elected to watch all of the ESPNHD games on E*, so I can not quantify the PQ for ESPNHD on V* since I have not watched it.

One side note: The PQ is not so bad that I will leave Voom. I know I made reference to that in another thread, but it was not serious. I really like Voom and understand they have a major growing curve ahead of them. If I want to complain about PQ, all I have to do is tune in a Dish barker channel to be reminded of why I have HD in the first place.

I'm looking forward to the next few weeks with the new software download and the new EquatorHD channel.

 

[andrzej]

Sean,
I don't want to discuss here what should be a wow factor and what not. The fact is, a lot of people here complain about HDPQ on Voom...

Most people who see no major problems with the PQ on Voom don't initiate new treads expressing their happiness and enjoyment, and don't write about it in other treads either. Why bother? We write when something is bothering us or simply because we like to bitch and whine, and it is so easy to do on forums like this one.

 

[Sean Mota]

We can all contribute to the PQ issue by given objective reasoning. What is it that makes the PQ bad or not crispy in your display yet someone else is saying the opposite. Another post posted in the extreme that every HD channel is SD. That is not constructive. That is bashing the channels. How can you one say every single HD channel in V* has bad PQ since you can't compare the same with another provider.

If you really want to help on this, compare channels that are in both providers, watching same program at same time. Be aware of what you are watching (the HD source, video, HD film transfer); Are you watching both via component. If so, are both of your component calibrated for each stb. That is the V* stb has a different type of calibration for your tv input. The same with the E* stb. They both output video but how is coming out do you have to adjust black levels more on the V* stb than the E* stb or vicersa...

I know what you are going to say. I have calibrated my TV (period). That's good but have you calculated into the equation the levels of colors you are getting from each stb.

 

[Scubasoul]

We can all contribute to the PQ issue by given objective reasoning. What is it that makes the PQ bad or not crispy in your display yet someone else is saying the opposite. Another post posted in the extreme that every HD channel is SD. That is not constructive. That is bashing the channels. How can you one say every single HD channel in V* has bad PQ since you can't compare the same with another provider.

If you really want to help on this, compare channels that are in both providers, watching same program at same time. Be aware of what you are watching (the HD source, video, HD film transfer); Are you watching both via component. If so, are both of your component calibrated for each stb. That is the V* stb has a different type of calibration for your tv input. The same with the E* stb. They both output video but how is coming out do you have to adjust black levels more on the V* stb than the E* stb or vicersa...

I know what you are going to say. I have calibrated my TV (period). That's good but have you calculated into the equation the levels of colors you are getting from each stb.

I agree that saying "all HD looks like SD" is WAY over the top. That's not the case at all.

And yes, indeed my TV has been recalibrated, incl. color decoder and I say that OTA and DHDT in particular do NOT compare to my old D* Sony receiver.

And I'm not bashing Voom here at all, I just see what I see, and if doesn't improve I simply cancel.

 

[andrzej]

...
That is the V* stb has a different type of calibration for your tv input. The same with the E* stb. They both output video but how is coming out do you have to adjust black levels more on the V* stb than the E* stb or vicersa...

I know what you are going to say. I have calibrated my TV (period). That's good but have you calculated into the equation the levels of colors you are getting from each stb.

There is no question that my D* stb (Sammy 160) has a different color palette than the V* stb. I have both connected to my Panny plasma via component switcher and Silver Serpent cables. I use two different setting banks for D* and for V* (and different yet for day and for night viewing). As I mentioned elsewhere, I stopped doing direct A/B comparisons on the same HD channels because I don't see any significant difference (I see on some SD channels but, I don't care about SD). There are significant differences in PQ between programs on the same channel but that's a different issue.

 

[ChetK]

How can you one say every single HD channel in V* has bad PQ since you can't compare the same with another provider.

With all due respect Sean, I can tell you this because I know what the difference is between slightly compressed HD and really compressed HD. If every HD channel that Dish Network has is better hands down than the same HD channels that Voom carries, what makes you think the picture quality couldn't be better on the channels that nobody else carries? Most likely, each channel on Voom is compressed the same amount to share one big pot of bandwidth. I can't state that by fact, but when I can sit 10 feet from the 55" RPTV and still see the halo's around the basketball players (on ESPNHD and TNTHD) and the halo's around the windsurfers (on RAVE) and the background moving (due to compression) when the camera is steady (during HBO original programming) and pictures look softer than any HD channel on Dish, I have a lot of proof in front of my very eyes. It's NOT my TV (it's calibrated for every input), it's NOT that way from the programming providers, and it is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a problem with Voom's compression OR Voom's receiver. There are no two ways about it.

I know the difference between film grain and compression. I know the difference between films shot in the 60 and 70s and HD cameras. You've got to give us more credit than that Sean. We can tell the difference between a bad film transfer and high compression. And on that note, I am comparing apples to apples when I compare the Dish content and the Voom content. They're the exact same channels and the exact same shows. So the source of the content is a variable that does not play into this.

 

[Sean Mota]

With all due respect Sean, I can tell you this because I know what the difference is between slightly compressed HD and really compressed HD. If every HD channel that Dish Network has is better hands down than the same HD channels that Voom carries, what makes you think the picture quality couldn't be better on the channels that nobody else carries? Most likely, each channel on Voom is compressed the same amount to share one big pot of bandwidth. I can't state that by fact, but when I can sit 10 feet from the 55" RPTV and still see the halo's around the basketball players (on ESPNHD and TNTHD) and the halo's around the windsurfers (on RAVE) and the background moving (due to compression) when the camera is steady (during HBO original programming) and pictures look softer than any HD channel on Dish, I have a lot of proof in front of my very eyes. It's NOT my TV (it's calibrated for every input), it's NOT that way from the programming providers, and it is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a problem with Voom's compression OR Voom's receiver. There are no two ways about it.

I know the difference between film grain and compression. I know the difference between films shot in the 60 and 70s and HD cameras. You've got to give us more credit than that Sean. We can tell the difference between a bad film transfer and high compression. And on that note, I am comparing apples to apples when I compare the Dish content and the Voom content. They're the exact same channels and the exact same shows. So the source of the content is a variable that does not play into this.

I am not pointing fingers here. I am trying to see what you guys see that I do not see. I always take opinions very seriously (including yours ChetK) but there has been others (opinion, not necessarily yours ChetK) that add very little to the discussion. What I posted is very basic to any of you, but I did not post those instructions specifically to you but to those that say right out of the box "HD is as good as SD on V*".

Now let's get back to the discussion. What are those Halos that you are watching on V*? I haven't seen that one and maybe I should start looking for them as well.

 

[ChetK]

It's all good Sean!

Let me see if I can give you an example.

See my next post.